While Salisbury and Wicomico County are desperate for economic development, millions of dollars are being invested right now in small Bars and Restaurants who would enjoy the before and after traffic from those attending the Civic Center festivities.
What I think most are forgetting is that buying a beer there, (for example) will be far more expensive, for starters. Secondly, the Civic Center doesn't host that many events throughout the year that would demand alcohol consumption.
Do you really want to take your kids to Disney on Ice or a Globetrotters event and drink alcohol? It's called the "Youth & Civic Center" for a reason.
You don't go to the Movies and sit there for 2+ hours drinking alcohol, so why such a fuss over the Civic Center?
Here's what I personally see in the future. Doug Marshall is building an Amphitheatre in Delmar with PRIVATE funds. The venue you'll see there will host much bigger concert style events then the Civic Center can host anyway. If you are not aware, booking companies require a certain amount of seats per celebrity/group. Doug's Heron Ponds facility is allowed to serve alcohol and will eventually have a Restaurant/Bar on that location.
So why does local government want to compete, (once again, since they already compete with catering food) with independent businesses? I personally think it's unfair and the County should not only stick with what they have, they should excel in events that do not require alcohol customers.
I'm sure many of you have heard me say this in the past but I used to own a chain of Upscale Billiard Rooms, No Alcohol. We made a small fortune in that business. Could we have made more with alcohol, not really. By doing so, (like Breaktime Billiards) you are catering to a different crowd and problems.
Let the independent investors do their thing and I believe the Civic Center could do extremely well with what they have. It just takes the right kind of management to make it work. Besides, the contractual agreement there says this is not possible, so get over it.
72 comments:
nevermind the fact that the family that donated the land to the county for the civic center did so with the stipulation that alcohol never be served there, so why keep arguing the point.
1:06, Well, there's a lot more to this than most realize.
You see, the original agreement was that the County would build "Ball Fields" on that location "without alcohol".
So in reality, the County, (by building a Civic Center) is already in violation of the original agreement.
We need to re-enumerate and STRESS the basic functions of government.
Post it on the wall where it can be seen when decisions are being made.
The biggest reason government has grown and wandered so much is.. those who govern have forgotten (or never knew) what it is they are there to do, the very same problem you will find in failing businesses.
Get a laser-like focus on the basic objectives and lock it in.
I don't see how serving alcohol will increase attendance to events at the civic center. In fact could decrease attendance, with parents keeping their kids from attending events that crossover with adults drinking.
They can't control the centre. How they going to control a drunk crowd of wrestling fans?
The donated land argument does make sense, but be opposed doesn't. People are willing to pay a premium for Beer and other concessions at stadiums and events, and Lord knows we need me more $. I think if the revenue from alcohol sales went into parks and rec or schools and a stronger alcoholism-help system that it would be a good thing and would result in the land being used for its’ intended purpose.
I think it is time that Wicomico County reconsider the alcohol situation. There are strong arguments for both sides. We need open discussion with all the pros and cons, maybe you are starting that with this post.
I think Bob has bigger fish to fry than this. How about jobs???
Every Movie theater where I live sells all Liquor and Beer products. The Salisbury area just can't handle it or imagine a place where people are responsible. It's nice to sit back and watch a movie and enjoy a drink. So yes Joe, People do go sit in movies and drink. There was also beer served where I took my daughter to see the Disney Frozen Ice Show. Get out of your bubble people. This is why this area will never grow.
If this would help lower ticket prices, then it should be considered. Alcohol means beer and wine, right? They could lower ticket prices for events and keep the price of alcohol high enough that it would prevent the average person from drinking too much. Only allow alcohol at events not geared toward children.
I think the main issue is that there are many bands that will not perform at a place that does not serve alcohol.
These bands figure there will be more attendance in a venue that serves alcohol and it loosens the crowd up to buy T-shirts, CDs and other items from their merchant tables during and after the shows.
If the Civic center were to allow alcohol then it would open the venue to a lot more shows that would be interested in performing here in Salisbury.
For the record Joe, the family agreed to the Civic Center with the stipulation that there was never to be any alcohol for sale, nothing though regarding consumption.
Joe nobody us saying boose all the time just adult events not kids.
Wasn't Mackes' focus on sports marketing? Wasn't there some talk a few years back about a hockey team coming to the Civic Center but the deal wouldn't work without beer? In my opinion, Civic Center needs to get with the times or close completely. It isn't serving its original purpose anyway.
A Disney on ice show no alcohol
A concert hell yea. That's why civic center concerts suck cuz u cant drink.
I think it's sad that adults cannot refrain from drinking for specific events. When alcohol becomes the attraction instead of the event, there lies the problem. Alcohol does not make the attraction better or adds to the experience. Get a life and use restraint and consideration for others.
Yeah, over priced tickets, over priced food and then over priced beer! That's just what they need. No alcohol.
While Wicomico County sits doing nothing, new and better venues are popping up all around us. The clock is ticking on the Civic Center. The "people" need to decide if they want to drive to another city/location to see shows of any kind or whether they want to try to compete at least in a small way with the other venues. We can't currently build a fancy new state of the art facility. Let's at least do some cosmetic upgrades and add limited alcohol sales at non-child oriented events. If this can't be done, close the place down and save the taxpayers some money!
Ticket prices need to be lower - everyone agrees. If alcohol sales can do that, it is an option to consider. That place needs to work on increasing attendance any way it can. They are pricing themselves out of the market. The goal should be getting people in the door. Lower ticket prices would do that. If people choose to pay for high priced beer, that's on them.
Truth is, nobody is getting wasted off of $8-10 brewskis. Take a look at Pier 6 in Baltimore, sure, the Wicomico Civic Center doesn't touch such atmosphere. But, Joe you've mentioned the idea of micro-breweries, as well as supporting local breweries. What better place to showcase our local economy than the Civic Center? Screw having Budweiser or Coors, no offense, but a fresh local brew? That's an angle that can sell!
Joe If certain people want sports events, loud bands etc and alcohol. There is a piece of property where the old mall sat. Build a large arena with adult events, alcohol and bring all those "large" events in raise hell and let the alcohol flow. BUT not at our civic center.
The ball stadium has alcohol and I don't see people standing in line to get in?
I was talking to a friend earlier today about this and I want to share a part of that conversation with you.
Being that I used to own a Bar, I had all of my Staff take and pass the Maryland TIPS Course. I personally took it as well.
The importance of this course was to truly get to know the stages of what an individual might be in while drinking.
Here's the problem as I see it. Serving alcohol to anyone is no joke. A good professional bartender knows these stages and respects them.
When you are working behind a bar, you get to meet and greet the customer, allowing you to get a pretty good idea where they stand, stage wise.
IF you have an establishment like the Civic Center, (for example) where there are different locations to get alcohol from, you might not get that same customer coming back to the one location, especially if they've been cut off by one location.
If that person leaves drunk and gets in an accident and God Forbid kills someone, the Civic Center is liable.
Now I don't care what the excuses are, these kind of places CANNOT play by the same rules and or expectations as a local bar with one station to get served.
I know, some of you will come back here and say there will only be one station at the Civic Center. I highly doubt that. The building is too big for just one location.
Anyhow, food for thought.
If your parent or grand parent left a piece of property with written statement it would not have alcohol on the property. How would you feel if someone states it don't make since or he is dead what does it matter. It does matter. We are here to uphold his wishes.
Build it somewhere else. RESPECT!
Joe,
Compared the Civic Center to any other similarly sized venues on the Western Shore, the Civic Center can and should sell. Fact is, a lot of concert goers simply bring with those little bottles of booze in with them. I've seen more than a few shows there, and the floor is always littered with those airplane size bottles. Why not financially capitalize on an obvious demand?
318-Yeah, well, those same folks wanted ball fields, not a civic center. So the community has already trampled on their wishes.
3:18 People consume alcohol at the Civic Center all the time. It cannot be SOLD, so people bring in their own. There are other ways around it with use of tickets for "hospitality" rooms. Past Councilwoman Prettyman who was so opposed to alcohol at the Civic Center proudly attended the Red Cross luncheon with bottles of champagne on her table that she provided. What kind of respect is that if the intend of the land donor was NO alcohol? A bit hypocritical I'd say. People interpret the language anyway they want and look for loop holes. The land was supposed to be ball fields. Do you seen any there?
I agree with 3:13, how many locals can afford to get drunk on what the Civic Center will charge for beer. As far as 3:14 comment, where is THAT money coming from to build something new when we can't support what we have.
I agree with 3:18 pm. And I think it's great to have a place to enjoy concerts, etc. in Salisbury without people drinking. The ones who have too much to drink at the Shorebirds games, for examples, are the ones who ruin it for others. I've had a beer spilled on me one too many times at a ball game by someone sitting behind me. And then they drive home, which is a scary thought.
Totally agree with your post, Joe.
The same people that are bringing in those small bottles will continue to do the same thing to avoid paying the high price. Every event they have in Salisbury they think they have to sell alcohol. Im sure the local police are licking their chops at the increased revenue alcohol at the Civic Center would bring.
Didn't there used to be ball fields on that property before the Civic Center was built? I might be wrong, but I thought I heard my parents talking about going to ball games there.
3:37 LOL perfect example of manipulating the situation to suit you. County has been in violation of the deed restrictions for years. Does anyone honestly think that the donor of the property was fine with alcohol being CONSUMED on the property, but just didn't want it to be SOLD?!! My guess is his INTENT was NO ALCOHOL AT ALL. So, County fathers - why haven't you been honoring the deed? Instead you've allowed BYOB events for decades. Now these same people get in a huff because some taxpayers think alcohol should be sold? What a double standard, but typical of the local yokel politicians.
347-Probably time for you to take in a show or concert in areas that are more inhabited. I've never seen a venue covered with as much "not sold here" trash as the Civic Center. Definitely not at venues with 3-5 times the capacity as the Wicomico Civic Center.
Joe - does the Civic Center make money or not? Isn't there money in the works to upgrade the place? Why in the h#ll should that be done if it isn't a money maker. The land and property could probably be put to better use. Let Marshall build something and take the risk.
Anyone who thinks that allowing alcohol there will lower ticket prices, is living in a pipe dream. The tickets will stay the same, and the alcohol (most likely beer) will be astronomical. I doubt the would serve anything else, as it doesn't make sense. Wine maybe for women?
Ed Urban tried for years to get this changed at the civic center. He and another gentleman started something in Fruitland a few yaers back and I think he left helping the county. The alcohol would not have to be sold at every thing that was there. Disney NO Fight Night YES Just how many Civic Centers in the country do not sell beer at certain avents!
I think the point is what can Wicomico afford? The BOE crowd wants new schools, taxpayers want tax cuts, county employees want raises - I could go on. I think some smart people need to really look at the Civic Center from a profit/loss basis, life of the building, etc. When I say smart people, I mean local experts who would volunteer their time like Culver has been getting others to do. Pollitt, Strasberg and Mackes never met a consultant they didn't love. We don't need outsiders to tell us what our County needs to do. We've got plenty of talented people right here to draw from if they are given the chance.
Well the new OC venue will steal the Broadway shows, so that basically leaves the poodles. Thought the focus was sports and we were building ball fields to accommodate all the teams who stay in OC - LOL. What's the long range plan? Surrounding areas are eating our lunch.
The Council and Slick Rick didn't have the gonads to try to get alcohol approved. Ed Urban is a bright man and they should have listened to him. He put a lot of work and research into this subject. If they had listened to Urban, we'd have alcohol at adult events and a hockey team here. Thank goodness we now have a true executive who will use business sense in directing this county. The jury is still out on all council members except Kilmer and Joe Holloway. Those two are looking out for taxpayers.
4:01 good point. What is the deal on the Civic Center? As part of Mackes' empire, he moved funds around like a chess game. Do we really know if it is viable? Understand he robbed money from tourism all the time to cover his other shortfalls.
POODLES AND BOOZE!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Just an observation, not being critical but observing, if comments have been made in the past about the local police not curbing crime in the area; how can we expect them to "police" drunken patrons? Seems risky to me.
But I can see pros and cons of both sides of this conversation.
I'm concerned about the personal safety issue.
4;12 I think that is a great idea. Hope Culver reads this blog.
Some people continue to not drink drink alcohol period. They have no need for it.
I understand many other humans seem to be unable to enjoy life without drugging themselves.
3:13 said, "Truth is, nobody is getting wasted off of $8-10 brewskis."
As a non-drinker I don't know how many $8 "brewakies" it takes to get "wasted." I don't go to many ball games but I was at a professional game in Philadelaphia this past spring. The two guys behind us had six to eight what must have been 24 ounce cans each at $8 a piece. I don't know if they were smashed like the cans at their feet were smashed, but my interest became getting on the road and away from there before they did.
1:41 said, "If this would help lower ticket prices, then it should be considered." Nothing is going to lower the ticket prices except maybe if nobody shows up and all that means is that event is over, likely for good.Alcohol is added on profit.
I was at the recent Blue Man Group show at the civic Center (got my ticket free from somebody who couldn't make it at the last minute). It looked mostly sold out to me. I am always amazed at how many people can afford the "over priced" tickets. Just like I am always amazed at hoe many people can afford to tattoo themselves.
I wish it wasn't so there would be less misery in the world but,there are people who have to drink. However because of the civic center's location I think we should respect the original givers wishes.
One more thing. Just because the civic center is a local government building for the community does not mean that hundreds if not thousands of private business, some local, don't benefit from it being there. It's good for our economy. It just needs to be, if it is not now, self
substaining.I know that has long been the goal.
There are a lot of comments about this place turning into a drunken brawl if alcohol is allowed - that's a slight exaggeration - but you get the point. The Civic Center always has security at events. They may need to beef it up some. I truly doubt that the cops are "chopping at the bit" to arrest people leaving the Civic Center after an event. And, do you truly believe THAT many people will get drunk at the Civic Center? People who like to drink can find hundreds of placing better and cheaper to do that. If you are right about the number of drunks serving alcohol would cause, that is a sad commentary on our area.
From reading these comments, I don't get the sense that people really care whether the Civic Center exists or not. Complaints of tickets too high, beer would be too high - do we really need the place? It is more of an adventure to travel to a concert or event anyway. Better facility, better entertainment and you have the option to drink a beer. Tear it down and sell the land for more low income housing or rehab it for county offices. Not sure anyone truly cares.
I think the focus needs to be on JOBS and ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. Will this help either?
To small. Its for kids And old fast shows.
We need to flatten it and build one huge arena that will attract big shows/concerts and venues. Nothing between Baltimore and Virginia Beach. A lot of artist pass this place. Not enough seats. Once this happens beer will make a killing for the county and city.
Let me add this thought as well.
What's to say a 22 year old buys a beer and brings it back to his 20 year old girlfriend. Who's policing that when the area is so dark during a concert? I think you get my drift.
They sell beer at shorebirds stadium. All of the above mentioned reasons as to why they shouldn't at the civic center are on display at every game. If they agreed originally to not sell alcohol then they should stick to that. Kids.. vendors... Carding... Atmosphere... None of that is relevant because none of that obviously matters at a baseball game.
As a veteran of about 70 rock concerts ....I can only say, only an idiot would sell alcohol at a rock show. Not one of those 70 odd rock shows I went to sold alcohol, and I saw hundreds arrested in fights and riots in the crowds.
alcohol at at concert?That's insane and asking for real trouble. We can go to the Centre for that.
The local law enforcement can't handle it. It's pretty obvious, don't you people think?
Lots of interesting comments.
1) There is a deed restriction prohibiting sales which is clear.
2) The deed is silent on consumption.
3) Attendees could BYOB if management permitted. From the comments some subset of attendees already do this, apparently while controlling themselves. This suggests alcohol in and of itself may be viable.
4) Or issue permits to some vendors to sell alcohol (2 per customer per trip) from the street at curbside, which is not covered by the deed restriction.
Consumers would have to walk to the curb for their drinks but since Pollitt was closing Glen Avenue whenever more than 50 were expected to attend it should be easy to monitor and observe. A canopy could cover the walk between the center and curb.
5) If sales at curbside and/or officially permitting BYOB swell attendance then more seriously looking at the deed might be in order.
6) I drink sparingly at home and rarely at events since I'm usually the driver so I'm not a teetotaler.
7) Just food, and drink, for thought.
Over the years I've attended many OC Convention Center events where beer & wine are sold. Does anyone see much difference between the two venues? I don't think there's been any problems for OC and if they can sell it here, why not.
I was on work release cleaning up the Civic center after the Circus, (which is a children's event)Man there was over a thousand empty beer cans, we counted them, and several hundred airplane size liqueur bottles, on Saturday.
I cleaned both days on the weekend, so much for no one drinking in there.
Artists take 90% of ticket revenue over your stated capacity, just like movie production companies take 50% of your gate sales at drive in movies. Concessions is your only revenue source. Public /private relationships are the future for our market. The Civic Center needs to be used to combine gov't admin services..
First of all. There are a ton of movie theaters in more sophisticated areas that sell alcohol so there's that. Secondly, Doug Marshall isn't building anything, he has a piece of property and a DESIRE to build an amphitheater. No offense to Doug but I have serious doubts it will ever be more than a field with a portable stage hosting rinky dink events. He's got no backing and his pockets while deep, aren't deep enough to pony up the millions it's going to take to build the amphitheater. As far as competition from the private sector, there is none. The only competition the Civic Center has is other municipally owned venues or municipally supported venues. The exception being the Freeman Stage which is a 501c3 non profit. No Joe, independent investors will not "do their thing" because independent investors don't get involved in the performing arts on this scale...benefactors do.
For centuries, benefactors and government(monarchies included) have been the majority supporters of the arts because both know the value of the arts to a civil society. And that the arts while not extremely profitable to the bottom line directly, have an indirect profitability to society as a whole. Brahms, Beethoven, bards, minstrels, Shakespeare and the like, have all been upheld by either benefactors or government. So unless you're willing to pony up some serious coin Joe, without any expectation of ROI, maybe you should stick to low rent pool halls that couldn't get a liquor license.
I think Disney on Ice did not even book the civic center this year. Marketing sales for this venue are getting very dismal thanks to the two overpaid and underskilled sales reps there.The civic center is history. Just like the old salisbury mall.I do not care how many upgrades it has its still a old cold musty outdated building. Without good jobs for people to have disposable income to attend major events it is a waste to even to continue for it to stay in business.
"Grandfathered in", means exactly that!
As we are talking about boose sales all they have to do is ask any civic center,Rec and parks, tourism employee they will sell u some during the work day
Hopefully Mr. Culver will get to bottom of alcohol and drug problem at parks department during work hours.
AT PARKS!
Please do not throw the kids out of the pool.
Be done with it and just TOSS THE POOL AWAY! Also his stepladder too.
This is not true. The stipulation was alcohol SOLD. There are many events held at the CC where alcohol is consumed. Remember the Bright Lights Big City News Years Partiesb ofb yearsb ago. They wereb certainly not dry events. The CC is only partially built on thrb donated property. All that has to be done is to locate the concession on non donated property and legalites are satified.
That was no the terms of the agreement. get your facts straight.
The biggest plus forb allowing alcohol is it opens the door for a minor league hocky team to come here. Several have showed interest, but the no booze sale makes it a dead deal. A hocky franchise would make investments in the building, create jobs and bring alot of new torism to the area. The CC would actually turn a profit instead of being a huge drain of the county finances. Doing this is an absolute no brainer.
Who really cares if the do? The over 21 law for boose is a farce. 18 yr olds can fight and die in the military, so they should be allowed 2 have a beer.
No need to do it curbside. Half the CC is built on non donated property.
Just a comment, whenever they have a Christian concert, they pack the place, need very little security and no one is concerned with concession, yet the WCYCC only brings two or three Christian concerts to the center each year. Provide more of what people want.
Ron white was drinking on stage during his act?
Make the civic center into the public safety building and build a new civic center that caters to you demand for alcohol and debauchery.
To 6:12 - Selling Beer at the Shorebirds Stadium
FYI - The Wicomico County Council gave a 'Conditional Approval for the Shorebirds Stadium' that prevented the consumption of alcohol. That's right - the Wicomico County Council imposed an alcohol restriction.
So SBYnews readers might be wondering what happened. One State Delegate - Norman Conway - helped to sponsor State legislation that overrode the County's alcohol restriction. And guess what - it passed - ALCOHOL SALES are now allowed because the State overrode the will of the County.
7:17 don't they have random drug testing in Wicomico County? Wonder how many other departments are getting away with drugs and alcohol use on the job? Culver should send a message loud and clear!.
I used to work for the county and with the bosses they have you need to take a couple nips before punching in just to deal with the arrogant know it alls.
6:49 No testing. Mackes supervisors have let department go to Pot.Maybe Mr Culver will clean house.Rec&Parks needs a new broom in both departments.
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