Urban Salisbury hosted a public meeting the other night allowing the public to see the package they have to offer, costing the taxpayers more than $5,000,000.00. Mind you, "some" of this money may come by way of Grants but either way that you look at it, it's still taxpayer money.
They went through their routine of a slide show presentation, (or whatever you call it now) and then opened the floor to questions and comments. I felt like Arnold Horshack from Welcome Back Kotter, Ohh, Ohh, Pick Me! They did.
I started off by asking, besides myself, are there any other property owners in the room? Palmer Gillis raised his hand. That was it, two KEY players in the room, because none of the other property owners had been invited. Yes, I know it was a public meeting but 2/3 of the property owners do not live in Salisbury.
I was not only concerned as to why Urban Salisbury is so afraid to bring in the key players, I felt without them they have absolutely NOTHING! I then stated that their presentation was very nice but I also felt they were missing the second largest factor in this whole package, ECONOMIC & DEVELOPMENT PLAN!
Without it, IMHO, their plan is putting lipstick on a pig. If they do not have key anchor shops committed to such a project, this package is simply a package to keep Urban Salisbury alive for several years in the hopes with a lot of luck they'll encourage someone to place their business there.
I'm sorry Folks but as a successful businessman, this is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. You must have commitments from others before you spend a dime. According to their plan, they could simply use the drawings they currently have to persuade companies and individuals to locate there with the promise that this is what will be done in the future.
Urban Salisbury says no, they have to do this first to bring people to the Downtown area. I completely disagree. Look, I'm getting close top 50 years old and I have opened, run and sold many businesses in my time, all of which were a financial success. Mr. Insley, (who did not attend the meeting after his speech on PAC 14) stated it's all about location, location, location.
In business, I want a Sales Person who can sell a product. I wouldn't need Sales People if my product was almost FREE and I gave everything away just to attract people to my business. That's what Urban Salisbury is doing. Then what's next. Will they get all this Grant money, put the lipstick on the pig and then come to property owners like myself and say, look, we provided the upgrades, now you must lower your rent in order to get people to bite!
This is what I mean by they're going about this A$$ Backwards. Everyone knows this is going to happen, so they need to be up front about it. This is a typical move by government organizations so they can always pass the blame of failure on someone else. I want to know everything right up front.
Then we move onto the key players, the property owners. To me, it seems everyone is upset that investors are sitting on their property in the hopes that they'll hit a home run one day when they sell it. Well, as things sit right now, I doubt anyone is going to hit any home runs. Nevertheless, local government wants to tell us what we can and can't do with our property.
While some wait for the Historical Society to make decisions on what can and can't be done to some buildings, IF the City wants to step i and buy the property owners out and then enforce what will be done there, so be it. However, the City wants to take absolutely NO RISK whatsoever and use Grant money to fund that lipstick.
I say, put the brakes on the entire project until the Economic & Development people come along and say, we like the concept, we're going to sell it to others and see if we can encourage some key anchor stores to commit to relocating there and in the mean time Urban Salisbury can meet with the KEY PLAYERS, (the property owners) and negotiate rent for commercial, residential and retail so everyone agrees across the board before the project moves forward.
In the mean time, if this isn't met, all they're doing is selling the public on how they have an idea to stay alive for a couple more years. There is NO OTHER REASON why Urban Salisbury would be welcoming the public into this whole thing, (when it's really none of their business) and selling people on a fluff package that absolutely will not work. The mere fact that they have refused to invite the property owners to a single meeting tells me they're using this to stay alive.
I like what this group has to offer this community, I understand they're on their last legs but I have to be completely honest and share my professional experience and wisdom. This will NOT work without selling it to the property owners first. That is, unless the Mayor and City Council want to pass legislation to tell us what we can and can't do down there, creating even more socialist living in America.
The Daily Times did an article on this yesterday which drew 2 comments. Let's see what this one brings. I want to add, your opinion is important. I think we'd all like to see the Downtown area shine. Let's hear your thoughts.
46 comments:
I agree with Joe 100%. There is no way, in this market and at this difficult time in our local economy, that these (well-intentioned?) planners are covering all the bases. Without those who have a vested interest in the success of the Plaza buying in....literally buying in, this is not going to be any different than the other, albeit feeble, attempts to get the Plaza into any state of vibrancy.
Why wouldn't they have invited the owners to participate? It seems like they would have wanted the most participation possible. And it seems like they should have addressed ALL the issues before rolling their plan out.
Insley is right with his mantra about location -- that's why there won't be any significant commercial in the downtown except to cater to those who work and may live there.
Vehicle traffic on the downtown plaza has no real benefit for that area.
Unfortunately this is simply more of the same from the downtown mafia, and they once again are asking the taxpayers to pay the cost of their folly.
Thanks but no thanks.
Sir:
This plan makes about as much sense as that nonsense about the "North Prong" that Barrie and Bubba were pushing this time last year.
It was an open meeting. Why do certian people need a special invitation? You either care or you don't. You either want special attention or you are not going to get it.
With all that money they could fix up the old water standpipe tower and move it downtown to cover up that funny looking metal statue on the plaza. When is the City going to tell the plaza owners that the public cash cow has run dry?
You sort of had me, Joe, until you said it was none of the public's business. The public is the market you seek.
As I understand it, there are downtown investors who were part of developing this plan. So, I don't understand why you are so down on it, even though you raise some good points.
As much PR as this has had, where ARE the "Economic Development" people? Why has SWED done nothing? The Chamber? Why do they need a special invitation?
If property owners want to be involved so badly in restoring what would benefit them, why do they need a special invitation?
I've lived in the Salisbury area for nearly 20 years and I haven't seen the property owners get "on board" with anything. If some momentum is going to finally come from someone or somewhere else, why knock it?
I'll repeat anonymous 9:32, the majority of property owners do NOT live in the Salisbury area. Without an invitation they would not have known this meeting or any other meeting is or will be held.
They did finally agree to send invitations out to future meetings.
I'd like everyone to actually discuss the plan itself, if you would.
IMO, I'd like to know why they changed the direction of traffic to west to east?
I'd also like to know why they want to relocate a simple rock fountain?
Why not allow diagonal parking on one entire side of the entire Plaza? You could probably fit at least 50 cars that way.
Why metered parking on the Plaza? If they're afraid of abuse, take a penny in the meter for 30 minutes. If someone fails to put a penny in the meter, ticket them. This will stop any abuse and the merchants can report anyone trying to abuse parking on the Plaza. Donate all the money to the Zoo.
Why relocate the statue to the GOB? I don't think there's a single person out there that likes that stupid thing anyway. Relocate it to the Park instead, period.
Ideas like this.
I would like to hear your position on the absentee property owners who have contracted for property management and their properties are in a cycle of spiraling decline. I have heard several downtown property owners say that the primary management company glosses over problems, not notifying owners of the scope of issues with buildings. I also understand that the building where Nancy N wes previously located is in poor condition (and is owned by someone who is local). A storm of code compliance officers and fire inspectors needs to inspect all downtown properties right now to give plenty of time for repairs to be made before bad weather sets in and begin to turn downtown around right now. The idea of the library reusing the Feldman's parcel seems like a step in the right direction, too.
9:38 --
Pal, I take my kids to the Park a lot, so don't put that phallic symbol there.
Someone asked:
"As much PR as this has had, where ARE the "Economic Development" people? Why has SWED done nothing? The Chamber? Why do they need a special invitation?"
The smart money knows that this scheme is another loser.
Sorry Joe, if they own property in Salisbury they should always be aware of what is going on. No matter where they live.
Now as for the questions that you posed, did you ask them at the meeting? You made no indication if you did or didn’t and wasn't this one of the reasons why they had the meeting?
If the downtown "planners" have any sense they will get that proposal to move the library killed ASAP!
Joe:
With this and that "North Prong" plan it would be about $10 Million without any real solid prospects.
No way, baby!
It seems like people are reinventing the wheel. This has been in other cities, this has been studied in other cities. Get my point, everything in this project has been doen somewhere else, so reach out, find out what worked what did not, and improve on that. Don't waste your time. Get everyone's input, this should have been on PAC 14 so everybody could see it and offer opinions. More information, better decisions.
anonymous 9:52, I own property elsewhere and quite frankly I couldn't tell you what's going on in those areas at all. Out of sight, out of mind. I believe you're missing the key point. I do not believe they want to encourage the property owners to be there. I believe they want to sell the public on this package and if they could keep the heavy hitters out of it and sell the community on the lipstick on the pig, well, they fell for it.
If the property owners came along and said they want nothing to do with it, (especially if they're asked to offer reduced rent and so forth) then it will fail.
As for the other questions I mentioned, while there was a question portion of the meeting and I had quite a few, they stopped me form asking any more as the ones I did ask and the staatements I did make had a HUGE impact on their intentions. Once everyone else asked questions and I raised my hand again to ask many more important questions they simply said they had time for one more question.
I'm not into playing any games. I want to get right to the point and while theyn asked me to attend and give my ideas, they only allowed two and moved on to other people who are NOT stake holders in the project.
The next time they better have a time schedule because I'll bring a list of questions and challenges and I expect them to have answers.
All:
Let's not get hung up on who was or was not invited or why. The plain fact is that this plan is a ridiculous waste of our money that has been taken (or will be) in taxes by the government at one level or another -- that's where those "grants" come from.
Tell the powers that be to "just say NO!"
I own four properties in town but am not a resident of the town. I do not have the right to vote in town election and the town officials tell me I do not have the right to speak at town meetings. It is the pits that renters are allowed to speak but of course they do not care what happens Their only interest is just what office holders can give or bribe them with. It was my decision to buy property and rent it out. Luckily I have very good renters and because of this have not raised anyones rent since they moved in. Of course I would like more income but this is a case of "be careful what you wish for", because more money doesn't mean better tenants. My point is, in Salisbury do property owners have any say if they do not live in Salisbury?
Joe, you made the post about the invitation, not about ideas on the plan, so you own where the discussion has headed. If you are an absentee property owner who doesn't know what's going on where you have property, shame on you. That's part of what's wrong, so stop blaming a group trying to make a difference.
Since you asked, what I like about the plan:
1. It's classic stuff, like other places.
2. The traffic flow reversal is smart. Gets people off of Mill and up through Main.
3. The obelisk was a gift and it's a memorial, so I guess they have to do something respectful with it.
4. They are keeping the trees.
What I don't like:
1. You're right. Go diagonal with parking.
2. Haven't seen enough to nail other things down.
The library is a separate project. To them I say, stay in the heart of downtown where you can bring the heart some foot traffic or go locate somewhere else. Good luck raising the money.
Can you say "we want Obamabucks to burn in our fair City"?
This looks like another "too many chiefs and not enough indians."
That's the Salisbury way!
10:17-
You don't need to be able to vote (have "say" as you put it) in Salisbury to maintain your property and operate it appropriately. Some of the larger property owners are business firms that have no vote, nor should they.
anonymous 10:18 said,
"Joe, you made the post about the invitation, not about ideas on the plan, so you own where the discussion has headed. If you are an absentee property owner who doesn't know what's going on where you have property, shame on you. That's part of what's wrong, so stop blaming a group trying to make a difference."
Since when do YOU direct what I can or can't say/suggest on my own Blog. If I choose to go in one direction or the other, that is my choice. All too often comments go in all sorts of directions, so I suggest you relax and open your mind to whatever anyone wants to discuss on this matter.
As for my blaming a group for trying to do make a difference, come on now. I'm pleased to see someone attempting to do something. However, DO IT RIGHT. Call in the key players first and cut the BS along the way. As for my earlier comment saying it's none of the taxpayers business, IT'S NOT!
It's like I mentioned to Councilwoman Cohen the other day. How would YOU like ME to show up on your block with a few thousand other residents and start telling you what you can or can't do. It's socialistic, (if that's a word) and I won't stand for it.
If Urban Salisbury would like to invite us to our own party, great. If they refuse to invite us and they want to have a part on our block, we'll fight it. WE are the key financial investors and we have more right to say what we want, as well as experience, then any one of the people in Urban Salisbury and or the taxpayers. YOU do not pay taxes for our property, we do.
Let me assure you of one thing. My building is paid for. If I want to sit on it and wait for someone to come along and make me an offer I'll accept, it's MY RIGHT to walk away with as uch profit as I want. It is NOT up to the City Council to tell me I have to rent it or have someone in it if I choose not to do so.
Now, if it gets out of hand and becomes a problem, show me the records of problems and I'll listen. Until then, I'm not going to be pushed around on my own property and I'll do with it what I want as long as it's within code and compliance.
However, remember what I said earlier. Their next step after they complete the project will be a demand to lower the rent. YOU better start thinking hard about that one because as property owners we might say, NO, this property is worth $15.00 a sq. ft. and you want me to rent it for $7.00? The next thing you know they'll be going to the Council asking for the Taxpayers to come up with the difference, like they did with the Marina and other previous projects. At least I'm being honest up front. You ALL better look long and hard at this project because right now I think it stinks.
With so much wisdom and experience at the top level in Urban Salisbury, I personally cannot believe they didn't think this out further. I appreciate many of the people there and I respect their time and hard work. However, for those being paid, they have missed the key elements it takes to make projects like this a success.
For the very first time in Salisbury someone with an audience is challenging a project and some don't like it. OK, that's understandable. However, do you want it to work, OR NOT?
What did Bota suggest a Walmart?
Muir was there to listen and observe. He did so quietly and respectfully, which is more than I can say about most of the other Council Members who did not attend. Terry Cohen was there and Mayor Ireton was there for about 5 minutes. Regardless of what anyone says about Muir, I'll give him credit. He is showing up at every Council Meeting and he is attending events like this. That in itself earns respect for me.
Yeah lets spread everyone out to make it look like we have a large interested crowd.
I agree with Joe.
Sorry Joe I have to disagree with you on one thing. You pay taxes on your property for your property. The city and its citizens own the street and the streetscape. So of course the taxpayers should have a say. It should be a collaborative effort.
In fact in every major city in this country that is how it is done. You have to do so in Washington, D.C., Baltimore, MD., etc. If the city has certain plans for its streets and streetscape they involve the citizens.
My personal thoughts:
1. Changing traffic, adding parking, moving statues – none of it accomplishes anything as long as there are no businesses there. What do they plan to do about the buildings that are sitting empty and in horrid disrepair (like the one next to City Center – I think it is the old Hess building?) No business is going to open with the guarantee that other storefronts will be sitting there empty and decaying.
2. There needs to be a focal point – is it the river? Will it be an arts-themed district? Will it integrate the AI&G, or the TV station? Will it be a business district? To design a ‘retail center’ is just silly. People won’t go there to shop without incentive – most people in Salisbury can’t afford to shop, period. Ask Palmer’s son how many of his commercial/retail listings are sitting empty before you randomly spend money on more. I have deep respect for the builders and realtors in this area, but sometimes our local successes forget that they are the minority - few people in town have the money to eat out & shop where they do, and they can't keep businesses afloat by themselves. We need to aim for a space that appeals to Salisbury's middle-class, not our homegrown Hiltons.
3. The plan is too small. The only thing that will turn the downtown (or Salisbury as a whole) around will be something so big, so drastic, and so unbelievable that people will take a trip downtown just to see it for themselves. It needs to be so new that the locals who are sick of hearing about the downtown will go look just to be able to complain about it. It has to be HUGE. This plan is small and futile.
Personally, I think they need to tear down the buildings that are trashed, and then spend the money as tax incentives or even a bonus of some sort to lure someone like the Torpedo Factory, The Smithsonian, or the Baltimore Aquarium to build a smaller annex facility downtown (in the old firehouse & library, maybe?) Then you have a tourist attraction, something for the locals to enjoy, a new employer, AND you have something to then build retail and restaurants around.
Without a BIG plan, this is throwing cash in the toilet.
OK anonymous 11:20, let's agree on that fact. Now give me your address INSIDE the City and let 30,000 people come down your street and look at your properties. My guess is, you don't have the stones to say who you are, like I do.
Thank You Andie
Joe, downtown is a very icky, sticky, yukky subject with most of us. This town has poured so much money into study after study for so many years, yet it still remains as is today. Give it up already and put all that money to use somewhere else. What was once, doesn't mean it is going to be again. They can change traffic direction, put all the diagonal parking they want, not charge for parking and it won't make people go downtown to NOTHING any quicker than it does now. There is nothing there - heck even stores in the mall don't stay there. People don't shop in Salisbury and if they do, they shop at Walmart, Sams, the mall or Delaware (tax free). Why do you think that the stores that were down there, moved. Give up on this downtown BS once and for all.
You asked and I gave an opinion. Sorry if you wanted something else.
But if I did own property downtown it still wouldn't be MY street. It still is the taxpayers.
Mr./Ms. 10:18
I disagree about having traffic on the plaza. If the direction is reversed, it will become another means to get to route 13 and points east thereof from the west side/Fitzwater Street, and simply add to the congestion in the downtown area. Those volume that does stop & shop will be very small, regardless of the parking situation.
Andie Davis:
Can you get Tom Ruark to do a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse there?
That would be a biggie - NOT!
The old gray mare,
she ain't what she used to be,
. . . many long years ago!
Here's what I think the Downtown Plaza area needs.
I think an old Barber Shop would be great, including a shoe shine booth.
An Ice Cream Shop would be fantastic.
A Bakery would be absolutely perfect. Bagels, fresh baked cakes.
A Coffee Shop with outdoor seating.
Office Supply Store.
Cleaners, even if it's a drop off location.
One or two bars for the evenjing crowds.
Things of that nature would be perfect. Maybe even a sub station for the Police Department. I even have the space and I'd rent it out to the City for $200.00 a month.
How about bringing back that hot dog cart that was there for many years -- and with Nathan's!
Do it now:
Reopen Watson's "Smoke House"!
(and the "Saddle Club", too)
I think that there needs to be more good ideas flowing- I think a barber shop is cool, how about a fresh market with groceries and produce?
I think that we need to engage SWED- and put together marketing pieces that will highlight the incentives that I hope the City will implement
Joe:
Just saw your latest comment. How about doing a good tobacco shop (like Watson's was) at your old synagogue building in downtown -- with a walk in room for great stoogies and all.
I'll bet Barrie would be your best customer!
I would focus on the river. The first thing I would do is tear down the old Feldman's building and any other building on the south side of the plaza to open it up towards the river. I would perserve the north side of the plaza. The lot across from Feldmans would make for a great
riverside park to have lunch.
I worked one summer for MR. Ziara at the hotdog cart/Baskin Robbins cart, I will have to tell you it was one of the best jobs I had, I would love to see another Hotdog cart down there, I know that we were ALWAYS busy, and it was a good cheep lunch
Just because you are a "stake holder" or "key player", it does not mean that your opinion could count more than anyone else. If there is to be a re-birth of the downtown area, the people that should be consulted should be those that they are trying to attract, the buying public. If the "stake holders" such as yourself aren't putting in businesses that attract shoppers and activity, then an alternative plan must be implemented. Perhaps you would be given more consideration if you could prove your expertise and back up your suggestions. If Urban Salisbury wants to attract business, they have to know what their market wants (the public), not be forced to concede with what isn't working right now.
1:15 yes lets have lunch 2 blocks from the perdue plant, outside
Bravo, 1:44! Now, I have a stupid question, Joe. Where are you getting all this "they're going to tell me I have to rent my building and I have to do this and that" stuff?
I haven't seen any of that in this plan. Or heard anything like that. The only thing I have heard is that the city intends to get serious about code compliance, which is okay by me.
Thanks for answering because I just don't get where you're getting that and it sounds like that's what's really got a hair up your butt.
It's great that there are so many ideas. If nothing else, Urban Salisbury has got more people talking about improving downtown than has happened in years.
Since you were at the meeting, Joe, you must have heard Urban Salisbury say this plan is the beginning. The landlords and the tenants and the public have to be involved.
You want a quick fix, a big store or something that draws thousands of people. Is that right? Well, what happens when they close? I guess you don't remeber the Hess store? Or when Penney's was downtown? Yeah, let's make the same mistakes we made 30 or 40 years ago.
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