On a Post I put together this week referencing the Ocean City Council Meeting with the Fire Department, some comments mention statistics that are complete BS!
Let me make this VERY clear. There has not been ONE single FIRE that the Volunteers haven't been on. NOT ONE! As a matter of fact, for every FIRE call there are 2 to 3 Volunteers on every call to every 1 Paid Firefighter.
So do NOT let those numbers fool you Ladies & Gentlemen. I have spoken directly with their Fire Chief and he'd put his life on that statement. Now there are calls where one smoke detector goes off and automatically calls 911. Their system is sophisticated enough to recognize that if a second one doesn't go off, it could be cause by burning toast, a cigarette or something non fire related and an alarm doesn't go out to the Volunteers.
The bottom line is, the numbers being tossed around are being done so to confuse and fool you. There was some mention of 6,000 calls, how many Volunteers came out on those? Another BS statement because the majority of those calls were for an ambulance/medical and the Volunteers aren't even involved in those calls.
If you're going to make statements, be fair and honest about them. I personally believe the Paid Firefighters are looking foolish and childish for spewing the numbers in the hopes of looking like they are superior and more needed than the Volunteers and that's just not the case.
28 comments:
Go get bent joe..Career firefighters handle the majority of calls as they come. Yes the volunteers are very supportive and the career staff cannot do the job without their help. However you want to sit here and say they are saying things unfair....That my friend is the pot calling the kettle black..You are the one who wont post comments if they do not agree with your side of the made up story. I am a proud IAFF member as well as a local volunteer firefighter for my community. But you just continue to bash ANY and ALL firefighters. As has been stated in the past. Take a class and learn some of the stuff that goes on with the fire service instead of constantly talking about how you would run the business. The fire service is a business like no other. NONE....Unless you truly understand it , dont comment on it. With all due respect, you have a good news site for the area. However its very hard to sit and watch you continually batter the fire service. If you dont like the fire service, so be it. Its your choice. However be fair about it.
I am clueless as to your statement towards my not posting comments. Unless you are the one sttacking my Wife, children and grandchild?
I stated earlier that any comments without a name leaves no credibility and this just proves exactly what I meant. You come here and make false statements without a name or proof.
You're not going to like this next statement but it is what it is. The Paid Firefighters in Ocean City fall nothing short of the Rent-A-Cops they hire in the Summer.
The Volunteers fight FIRES 3 to 1, 3 vollies verses 1 paid. So please don't act as if "I'm" not being fair, you're wrong. I have posted every single comment, good or bad on the OCFD Posts.
Come on Mr. Big Shot. Am I wrong? Are there not 3 to 1 Firefighters on every fire? Answer the question like a man and use your name like a man, I don't bite.
I wont use my name so that you my friend can attack me. I will tell you i am highly educated and well known member of the fire service. However you look at it, the volunteer fire service is slowly becoming a thing of the past. People such as yourself, who dont have time to commit to the training or time to commit to the actual task of the fire service, is the reason the career firefighters are here. Like it or not. The fire service is requiring more and more training to get up to NFPA standards. The volunteers either choose not to take part in the standards, because there is no recourse or because they just dont want to. When working side by side in a emergency situation. I want the ones who i know have the training. The fireground or rescue scene is not the time to learn. Someones life is on the line. If volunteers met the same standards as career people fine. No problem at all in working right beside them. As i said before. I am a career member as well as a volunteer. So not going to hear a paid vs. vol. issue from me my friend. As for the volunteers on scene vs. career. Of course there are more bodies. Are they really firefighters?? Sometimes yes sometimes no. Cadets, new members with no training etc. So just because there are bodies there. Does not mean there are truly firefighters there.
Joe, I read your blog, and I'm hit and miss as far whether or not I agree. However, I continue to read because it's hard to find a place that offers up-to-date news like this, and also this is one of the rare places where it's easy to partake in debate. I'm neither a volunteer in Ocean City, or a career employee in the town, just a volunteer fireman from little state up north. That being said...
No one is trying to fool anyone into understanding stats. As I understand it, the volunteers come out when there are fires, but not to many other alarms (AFA's, smoke investigations, landing zone's, etc.) That's not always bad, because most of the time their staffing would not be utilized. However, REAL fire's constitute an extremely small amount of calls for ALL fire departments in the country... everyone runs far more BS calls then fire.
A more accurate account for fire statistics comes from the OCVFC's website: 1481 fire alarms for 2007, the rest of the 6000 being EMS.
Also going from what's been said, anywhere in the city, you are basically guaranteed a paid engine out of station three, staffed usually by four (but at a minumum three, which is below NFPA specifications) career firemen/paramedics (or EMT's, if there is a part-time member on the engine that day). Furthermore, if the call is in another one of the box-areas (1, 2, or 4), the paid crew usually riding the ambulance will take one piece of fire apparatus with a crew of two. Lastly, you'll be getting a career lieutenant as the shift supervisor.
So, at most, you're usually putting seven paid employees on the road at the time of dispatch. That's all the paid division can afford to use, because they must maintain an acceptable level of EMS capability in the city as well. Past this, it is unknown what will be responding to the call.
There is no question that the volunteers will outnumber the career staff on a fire scene. They must, because the career division doesn't have the budget to be able to staff numerous pieces of fire apparatus. You need at least twenty firemen at a fire, so the volunteers need to respond with thirteen minimum. That's definitely almost double the paid Fire/EMS division.
This, however, doesn't seem to be the career division's fault. It seems to me the issue has been twisted. The Fire/EMS division doesn't want to work without the volunteers. They've wanted from the beginning a combination fire department, with the career and volunteer firemen working side-by-side. There is no need to remove the paid firemen from fighting fire. Many of them hold a wealth of information and experience, and Ocean City greatly benefits from having them on duty.
The same can be said for the volunteer department. I am aware that the issue of qualifications and available membership has been brought up numerous times, and I'll agree that it needs to be examined objectively. There are few needs on the fireground more vital than manpower (water, I suppose). As I do not know the statistics, I can not comment. Apparatus not only needs to be staffed with trained firemen, it needs to arrive quickly. It is said that a fire doubles in intensity every thirty seconds, so time is of the essence.
After that rant, I'll make just a few more comments. First, the paramedic engine is a great asset for the city to have. It ensures a quick response to fire calls independent of the initial volunteer availability. It is a great asset in assisting EMS crews on serious medical calls. Engine 16 is one of the busiest engines in the area; I don't think you'll find anyone refuting that claim.
That said, the volunteers also do a good job. They do their best to have duty crews assigned to ride from headquarters, again to enable a quick response to fire calls in the city. Their response to actual fires and motor vehicle collisions is traditionally good.
To end, I'll just reiterate what I've already said. No one wants to get rid of the volunteer fire company. Both departments do a fine job when called upon. It's my opinion that the Fire/EMS division simply wants equal say in fire service matters, because they are typically the first out the door for any fire call.
The issue about staffing is a moot one. The volunteers have more people on scene because they must have more people on scene. It's time for this BS to be put behind everyone, and they need to move forward. Collaborate, discuss, and come to a conclusion favorable for both sides.
P.S. Joe, you have a very powerful tool at your disposal. As I said, I certainly don't agree with you all of the time (or, even a lot sometimes), but I hope you can use this tool for positive change, and an increase in understanding of the issues at hand.
"You're not going to like this next statement but it is what it is. The Paid Firefighters in Ocean City fall nothing short of the Rent-A-Cops they hire in the Summer."
Joe, I missed this in my previous post. I don't think that's a fair assessment, at all. The paid firemen in Ocean City have devoted their lives to helping others. They are paid, yes, but the devotion is still there. Their job is ensuring that, when there is an emergency, those in trouble will receive the best possible care.
Many of them are instructors for MFRI, Delaware State Fire School, and elsewhere, and also teach for the volunteers. A large majority of them are volunteer firemen in their own towns. They do this job because it is what they love. They deal with the drunk 20-somethings at four in the morning. They deal with the teenage kid who gets hit by a car and suffers massive trauma. And they deal with the elderly woman who is having sever chest pains and cannot breathe. They train because, if they don't, people will die.
Are they perfect? No. But it's entirely unfair to call them the equivalent of Rent-A-Cops. They are by far, some of the most professional and well-educated paramedics and firemen I've ever had the pleasure to meet.
If you have not dealt with them, please don't bash them.
I have to agree with him Joe. I am a volunteer firefighter over the bridge and have been for 25 years. Volunteers are a loosing numbers at an alarming rate. My company has a retention rate of about .5 persons, yes that is a half a person, a month for what we bring in. Let me say this again. We may get 5, 6, or even up to 10 volunteers to join every month. But we cannot keep them. They start going to training either to be an EMT or a firefighter and find out it is a lot of work. Along with fund raising responsibilities. All of which are required. These people just walk away. To much work for what? Nothing, no pay, no nothing. At least in their eyes.
It is not like the old days where Joe the mechanic down the street hears the siren and craws out from under a car and leaves his job to go fight a fire. Heck, these days, most of the time the siren goes off it is because of a medical assist or some other BS call. On top of that, Joe the mechanic is working, most likely 30 minutes away because that is where his job is.
So how do we keep them? We teach them pride. We give them nice equipment to ride in. We give them incentives to keep them around. This is enough to keep that 1 person that we actually retain every couple of months to stay around a couple of years and help their community. Then they go away and get lucky and join the career service somewhere.
It’s a "me" generation. What are you going to do for me? That doesn’t bode well for the volunteer fire service in this age.
I hope things do work out for the town of Ocean City, the OCVFC, and the residents of OC. And I hope the volunteers and career service can help each other, to help the community.
Joe I have to say to you again. In order for you to understand the fire service, you need to immerse in it.
An AACo Volunteer
So Joe-
You spoke to the Fire Chief? Ask him if these facts are true. Then let me know…
First- Joe, you are correct, “Let me make this VERY clear. There has not been ONE single FIRE that the Volunteers haven't been on. NOT ONE! As a matter of fact, for every FIRE call there are 2 to 3 Volunteers on every call to every 1 Paid Firefighter.”
Now with that statement being made, lets define FIRE.
Definition: FIRE
destructive burning of something: a situation in which something such as a building or an area of land is destroyed or damaged by burning ( often used before a noun )
destroyed by fire
fire damage
So, yes you are correct, the Volunteers do come out for FIRES, that is where the fire whistle blows. During the middle of the night or heck, even during the day, and Ocean City Dispatch alerts for an automatic fire alarm, or vehicle accident, or any other call, that the VOLUNTEERS ARE alerted for, how many show up? 1-5 Volunteers that is it! Hmmmm, this 100+ years of service seems to be slacking off or maybe it’s the so called 100+ volunteers they have! How many of these volunteers are SCBA certified firefighters. Oh, if I am not mistaking- only about 35 Volunteers took the re-cert class last year. Let’s do the math, 100 volunteers – the 35 volunteers that took SCBA re-cert class = 65 that DID NOT!!
Joe, check with the Fire Chief and get an exact number!
This certification is required to function as a firefighter and is required to be worn to fight fires, investigate the possibility of a fire or to breathe in any toxic atmosphere. SCBA is considered standard safety gear that is worn on the majority of fire calls.
Now, here are some facts you can call the Fire Chief about:
FACT: The Chief’s of the Department have the following training:
Chief Larmore: Essentials of Firefighting IV, EMT-B, Rescue Technician
Assistant Chief Cropper: Firefighter III, HazMat Tech, Fire Officer I,
Pump Operator, Rope Rescue Technician, Fire Inspector I, EMT-I
Assistant Chief Duke: Firefighter II, Rescue Technician, EMT-B
Assistant Chief Bunting: Firefighter II, Pump Operator, Rescue
Technician, EMT-B
NFPA standards are recognized and widely followed throughout the fire
service. As listed above, Assistant Chief Cropper is the highest
qualified officer, but only on an initial company officer level aka
Lieutenant.
FACT: Two of the Chief’s listed above made inappropriate comments to one of their fellow volunteers in a Fire Officer I class. Chief Larmore, is no longer in Fire Officer I class, but has withdrew from the class.
FACT: President Jester played the song, “Crazy B*tch” at a Department function and offended several of the ladies. He dedicated this song to a member while in company uniform.
FACT: Where Ocean City Volunteer Fire Co Operational and Administrative Officers Live-
4 Chiefs live in the Ocean City response area
2 of the 4 Captains live outside of the Ocean City response area
4 of the 6 Lieutenants live outside of the Ocean City response area
5 of the 9 administrative members live outside of the Ocean city
response area
The foundation of a Volunteer Fire Company is to live in the community
you serve.
FACT: The Ocean City Volunteer Fire Company requirements to be a Chief have been the same for at least twenty years. The training hour requirements are less than what a probationary firefighter has coming out of fire school. They are elected by the members eligible to vote. Captains and Lieutenants are appointed and although there are currently no training requirements, some possess the NFPA recommended training appropriate to their position and function.
So JOE!! Check with the ole’ Chief on these and let me know… Then I will give you a few more facts… to: “Set things straight!”
KEEPING THE FACTS
hey joe why dont you ask the chief how many people are checking up while there being paid by the town of oc example the fire marshals.
maybe you also need to ask how many times the mark up sheets stay out for hours,so any body can come in and mark up.They will out number 3 to 1 because the numbers are fixed.But they sure are not on the calls.
heres the truth the fire company does have some good people riding the equipment but not in the numbers your saying.
Ask the chief what he said as an asst chief to the fire ems division.We being the fire compnay can not handle the calls all the time.
Joe. Since you're SOOOOO knowledgeable regarding this issue, one would think you'd at least know the acronym by which they go by (OCVFC) as well as the correct name of the organization. (OCEAN CITY VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPANY) Then again, you wouldn't know because you didn't know squat about the OCVFC until this issue reared it's head. Two conversations with the Fire Chief later and your attendance at a Council meeting and, whala! Presto! I'm an EXPERT.
If you are a proud IAFF member why are you in this matter? The IAFF is a LABOR UNION. THis has nothing to do with labor so why is the union even in it? IAFF is in charge of raises (which you got) salaries (the nice big ones you have) and all the other stuff that is involved in labor contracts. So leave it to the management to do this not the union
Also you should be aware that the majority of structure fires we have had this past year had already been put out by the career staff that get their before the volunteers 100% of the time. The majority of them were there for salvage and overhaul and very few of them stuck around afterwards to help place the equipment back in service which can take an hour or more. Yes the volunteers show up for the major fire calls but won't have anything to do with the 5000 other calls that occur throughout the year. And if you want stats ask the chief to pull the calls from the NFIRS reports that list all personnel and whether they were on the scene or just showed up later to get credit for doing nothing.
Joe... Did you get up with Chief about those facts?
Keeping The Facts
Yes, I even said so in my Post.
419: "I'm neither a volunteer in Ocean City, or a career employee in the town, just a volunteer fireman from little state up north."
Then why they hell do you think you know so much about OC? If your from a little state up north stay there and mind your own business.
Joe's from a little State up North. Why don't you tell him the same?
I know why you won't. You ain't got the stones to.
I'm back after a long awaited vacation.
So Joe, you think your facts are right do you? Let's think about this for one second. Who was the first to draw blood during this whole OCVFC and Fire/EMS division? I'm pretty sure OCVFC posted the first article in the paper crying wolf about how we were planning on packing up and leaving. Yet we still stay, because we know realistically we couldn't make it on our own.
The only thing is boils down to the fire company wants CONTROL. If not why do you bargain back and forth for certain power privileges?
Obviously the paid ratio to volunteers may be 3 to 1. However on the fire scene the ratio is more like 5 career to tops 1 or two volunteers.
So on the last working fire there was a 3 to 1 ratio. Big deal it came in as a working fire! What about all the silent alarms, accidents, or public service calls? I think we run more of those than workings fires? It's not about being a pyro and putting fire out all the time. It's about serving the community as a whole.
What right do you have to bash the career stating they are nothing more then Rent a Cops? They have spent more time in the classroom studying to be Paramedics then you have spent your lifetime being the Gossip Queen of Salisbury. When you can sit in the back of an ambulance looking at a child who just got thrown from a vehicle in an accident or who got pulled from a fire and put the thousands of hours you went to class to save their life, because its what you enjoy and make a living out of it. Then that's when you can bash. Until then your talking privileges have been revoked.\
NOW I'M BACK..
"Until then your talking privileges have been revoked."
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
I'll let the Volunteers respond.
jo, seems actual 700 confirmed your story, " so on the last fire there was a 3-1 ratio, it came in as a working fire" Now watch, he will change his story. You must have been accuarate jo, when even the critics agree. Assholes always trip themselves up. btw 700, if you read ALL the replies, it seems most everyone is trying to move on. If you have a single bone in your body that cares for the fire service you will to, otherwise go back on vacation, which was probably a week in the Salisbury zoo, or back to your doublewide with mr. "keeping the facts", you guys are trash that only hide behind a keyboard.
As a vollie, the actual 700 does not deserve a responce, we want to move on. I hope everyone agrees. Jo, I do enjoy your news site, and will continue to check back for other stories.
That was a volunteer response..
You know there are volunteers that disagree with what the Fire company is doing right?
If you would talk to more people than just the Chief at the council meeting you might realize that...
Oh and yeah I did confirm it, I happened to be there. Were you? Probably not. Oh I guess I failed to mention that the bridge was closed on that working fire and only a staff paramedic unit was at station 5 with two providers.
If everyone was trying to move on then why did you post? You could have just let it go un replied..
"..trash that hide behind keyboards.." yea your real good at being a hypocrite to aren't you..
Hey actual 700, you guys in OC must have a differant requirement than everyone else in the country, or just simply can't tell the truth. As a Maryland Paramedic for 26 years, even with cont. ed, I haven't been to "thousands of classroom hours" You guys need to be more accurate, thats the credibity you have lost all along.
Ok let me be more precise with my numbers..
Check Wor-Wic Community Colleges academic EMS hours.
EMT- Intermediate
1200 hours of Lecture/Classroom
800 hours of Field Training (minimum)
EMT- Paramedic
1400 Hours of Lecture/Classroom
800 Hours of Field Training (minimum)
That's two full years of class.
Maybe 26 years ago when you took paramedic it may have been only 4 months long.
Let me shed some light ole timer, you went 6 hours a week two 3 hour classes, and every other Saturday for give or take 6-8 hours.
CRT was only 250 hours long.
So roughly to go from a civilian to a paramedic roughly took 1000 hours. Maybe you should re-evaluate your drug math.
So one of two things is going on..
1. Someone else is not telling the truth...(you)
2. Or maybe you have done proper continuing education..
ole timer, ahhhhhhhhhhh I see. Everyone sees the holes in your statements. With my 26 years, before you put me to pasture, bet I still work circles around you, and one thing for sure, I know how to tell the truth. Besides, while you fight with everyone, which you always will, and be miserable in a career that was once fun, I will retire with honors and a memory of when the service was fun and rewarding. You have already lost "my son", and just don't know it.
You may run circles around me. For one I hope you do after 26 years, but I dont discredit you EMS skills. I'm not trying to retire you either, you said that no one does thousands of hours including cont. ed. So I gave you the figures.
This service will always be fun, both Volunteer and Career. But how can it be fun for the Career staff who come in everyday and wonder what new information or what volunteer is going to bash them??
You still find my information false? I stated the facts. The hours required to obtain a licensed profession, to serve the community.
How can you say you speak the truth when obviously you do not know the facts?
Hostility between both sides are obvious. Also you must remember, something that has always been told to me.
"There are two sides to every story."
dam, seems the young pup 700 has been put in his place by one of his own. LMAO, so typical not just with those claiming to be "firemen" but with this generation of know it alls. I love the part, he will never be happy, and fight forever. Get a life man, it only gets worse, trust me.
"Actual 700" and "just the facts" are both whining cry babies, that is so obvious. Anyone can see by all the inaccuracies and negative response. We have the same in Salisbury, the ones that hide in the corner, and do nothing but bi***. When this battle is over, they will just find another. I will never support any position by JLJ, but these two are just as bad. BTW Jo, why do you support OC, and bash us?
7:02 and 7:07
Wow are we big kids now? You feel better?
7:07 so we are nothing but cry babies? Yet you wonder why Joe supports the OCVFC but not the bury? Why does it matter? Yet you still b!tch and complain about JLJ? Can we say HYPOCRITE?
Inaccuracies? HA! That's a good one. PROVE IT!!!! Why would I waste my time fighting for a community I'm so dedicated to, to come on this site to spread lies? Please explain to me..Please Please Please...
7:02 You know nothing about me or my age, nor do you know anything about me being a know it all. So unless you got some valuable information just shut up..
I post as a Volunteer obviously "Just the Facts" is a career personnel.
Have you ever thought that maybe just maybe, that a volunteer or maybe more do not agree with what the Volunteer Fire Company is doing? If you know so much you should understand politics and how it works? From what I can tell you sound like you have been around for a while.
700, I understand, if you are a volunteer, you are a back stabbing, sh** stirring, POS that has probably never amounted to anything, and surely cant make the pimble on a career mans ass, here or in OC. Or your from PG, AA or MC and went to OC with the same attitude.
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