Dr. Randy George of Marion Station presented the following remarks Feb. 11 to the County Ethics Commission as it begins to review financial disclosure forms submitted by the County Commissioners.
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“I’m have been very troubled by what’s going on with regards to this wind ordinance. The underlying reason, I think, why you’re here today is that wind ordinance.
“The drafting of an ordinance was commissioned by the County Commissioners to the Planning and Zoning Commission, and I think this whole discussion centers around the prestige of office, around the use of that. And that’s the underlying theme that I hear through it all.
“You are at some disadvantage, because you were not, like many of us, sitting through these long Planning and Zoning Commission meetings. Maybe that’s an advantage. But we do have, and the county does have audio/visual records of every bit of it, it’s out there.
“When Pioneer Green, we all know who that is, came into the county, it had very clear requirements. It was never vague about those requirements for what it had to have in order to be here. It needed to plant a series of turbines in an agricultural-residential area, because we are closely tied geographically to each other that didn’t leave a lot of area. People live quite close to each other even though it’s an agricultural region.
“Pioneer Green wanted to place these turbines 700 feet away from people. They finally conceded that it would be a 1,000 feet, otherwise they would have to walk. The height had to be a certain height, and if it were to be restricted, they would have to walk. If the sound was allowed to be too loud, they would have to walk, they required it to be in the range of airports and train sound levels permitted by the state of Maryland, otherwise they would not stay.
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1,183 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 1183 Newer› Newest»12:32 Actually the zoning board did do an extensive review of all available literature when they made their decisions.
Who needs studies when we have reality. Property values decrease and people get sick. Electricity rates rise. All of these are facts. Independent science supports these facts. Sorry PG guy, go blow your smoke up someone elses hole.
Wind development is a raw deal for the communities that host turbines. The land the turbines will sit on is zoned agriculture, the lowest of all real property taxes will be collected even though it hosts industrial development. The land surrounding the units will be ineligible for development thus stunting county revenues even farther. The personal property tax charged to the wind facility is at 50% of the rate charged to other businesses in the county. The $200 million dollars that will be spent will be spent elsewhere for turbine parts and skilled labor. Two low paying jobs will be created. In return, the local environment will be irreparably damaged, there will be constant noise pollution, electricity rates will increase, property values will decrease, more transmission lines will be installed, and large amounts of farmland will be overrun with access roads. Because we are in the Atlantic Flyway and a bald eagle haven, we will lose untold numbers of birds. Somerset is a pastoral county that has a one of a kind ecosystem that is not expendable. This plan is a disaster and we know it.
The zoning board ignored scientific evidence in favor of Pioneer Green's cherry picked studies that were commissioned by the industry and government offices that have an agenda to install renewable energy at any and all cost. WE ARE NOT STUPID!
Oh my! Usual litany of SFS claims that they refuse to provide any evidence to back up. In fact they admit they don't have any! They just reassure us they know better! Since GB supporters have already cited a long list of references that SFS concedes it can't refute I see no need to cite them again. I think it is very interesting that SFS has to assure us they are not stupid! Who would have ever thought that?
Just yesterday a GB supporter cited 23 different property values studies that show either no change in property values or a positive change but still SFS claims property values will be negatively hurt and that it's a proven fact. Amazing! One of the few studies cited by SFS claims areas with wind energy enjoy lower electric rates so here they are refuting their own study.Somerset has a one of a kind ecosystem??? What scientific evidence did the zoning board ignore?The only rational explanation is these people are just delusional.
2:31 Could you please discribe how all these studies were commissioned by the wind industry when they so obviously are not. Each study discribes the institution that did the research and most studies state the funding source and if any conflicts of interest exist. Your claim of mass bird kills has already been addressed and at least one of the studies referenced was used by a opponent a few months ago as they had not bothered to actually read it enough to notice it discribed a 1% kill rate. The lie you perpetrate about property values has already been debunked by over 20 studies on here. Even an article cited by SFS indicates no increase in power prices. You indicate this project is a raw deal but this project will bring income to numerous families and 2.9 million per year in county tax revenue. i realize you are desperate to make a point but this is getting ridiculous. If anything said on here is false then call it out, refute it and give a source.
4:19 I do remember the zoning board ignoring one of their members (who later lost their seat) who was talking about "blade liberations" and insisting all of her information was correct as she had seen it "on a video" but other than that I do not remember any information being ignored. I do remember the zoning board giving special treatment to SFS and letting two of their members give presentations. Eventually they made a decision they felt comfortable with based on facts not rhetoric.
You guys just don't understand! SFS doesn't need all those studies! They hear voices that no one else hear! Those voices tell them the REAL truth! We need to just let SFS and those voices guide Somerset to prosperity!
I just came in from feeding the chickens, working on the new barn that the county let me build, and cutting down that old tree my neighbor didn't like. I heard voices saying that Pioneer Green is full of bull Sh$$.
Also heard a voice that said PG is a little perturbed that they are not able to dictate what goes on in Somerset County.
Heard another voice that said since PG isn't able to build any windmills that all they have to do is blog all day.
Another voice just chimed in saying that if PG spent 200 million on windmills, Somerset county would be lucky if they saw $50,000 of it, it would all be spent elsewhere.
Shhhhhh don't you fret now. We understand you and your voices have your very own reality. Just relax, try and breathe slowly and try not to forget your meds again
101:16 SFS has claimed the hosting landowners will get a windfall from the project. Where do you think they will spend their "millions"? People spend the most closest to home. A very prestigious institution has estimated 2.9 million will be paid in county taxes per year. Which county will receive county taxes on a project in Somerset? Part of the 200 million would be making access ways and creating the turbine sites. How many people in the county run excavation equipment? Are there not quarries in the county for sand and gravel? When the part assemblies come in they will need to be trucked in from a barge. How many Class A CDL drivers are in the county?
Kevin Miller PLEASE STOP LYING. Where will you live when this is over, surely, not in Somerset County!!!
Real data is fact. Please stop touting phony studies that the wind industry hides behind. The evidence is all around in every state and every county where their is wind development.
PG Supporter, just want to let you know, the more you post, the more people can see your desperate lies.
Hey SFS please point out any lies the supporters have made and cite evidence as they have done.
SFS supporter. You are unable to name a single lie, refute it and offer anything to substantiate your point of view. Anyone that reads through these 600 some comments can see that. You false claims that every study that has been posted has somehow been bought off by the wind industry without any evidence is a clear indication that your argument falls apart under scrutiny. Your plea's for everyone to stop reading subject matter and just listen to you makes it obvious who is desperate, and I can understand why you would be desperate. With your own people admitting to declining support and contradicting themselves it is obvious that there are fewer and fewer people who are willing to believe the youtube videos on your website over real information. You keep stating "the evidence." Where is this evidence? The people of this county need economic security and development and this should not be put on hold based solely on your word.
10:14 When you were cutting down your tree what type of hand saw did you use? A chainsaw would've been way over the 40dba SFS wanted to institute and we know a SFS supporter would never be guilty of hypocrisy.
6:58 again you are not helping your case with the info provided. As far as quarries in Somerset, the landfill is making the property around Westover look like a war zone. Clyde Ford rd is noting but quarries used to provide dirt for the landfill. If you come in and buy up massive amounts of sand and gravel it only makes our county look worse and raises the price for sand and gravel for us when we need it.
You are right 9:07 but it only took 15 minutes, I don't run the chain saw 24/7 and during the night when neighbors are trying to sleep.
Several CDL's in the county 6:58 and they are all employed. You would surly have to go outside the county for drivers and trucks and just about everything else you would need. If you don't know that by now you had better do a little more research. People with skills in Somerset have jobs, only the unemployable freeloaders are unemployed and your project will do nothing to help them except maybe increase their government benefits.
9:18 There are already active quarries in Somerset County. Do you not want those private businesses to do well? Is SFS now against the sand and gravel business as well? You would rather every business in Somerset do poorly so they would have better prices for you than to do well and charge competitive rates?
9:20 SFS keeps making the case there is no wind available in Somerset. Which statement do you want to argue? That there is no wind for the project or that the turbines would get outstanding performance and spin 24/7? It's hard for me to debate you when you debate yourself.
9:25 There are actually quite a few CDL's in the area that would welcome extra work. A lot of people have their Class A's just to pick up extra work with farmers during harvest. Perfect scenario for them.
9:25 By the census data the tenth largest employer in the county is Mcdonalds. Does that really sound like an environment saturated with jobs?
OK PG guy, you again start off by claiming I'm somehow a part of SFS which I am not, I express my own opinions and no one else's. Until you acknowledge there are average citizens that oppose windmills all of your comments should be taken with a grain of salt. Competitive prices are what we are paying now for sand and gravel. If there was a high demand for that product than naturally the sellers would raise their price, it's only common sense but unfortunately you don't seem to have any. You are really intelligent so you shouldn't lower yourself to making these rediculous statements.
I get it PG, you want county residents to compete with PG when they drive the prices of local products up sky high. That's nice, thank you.
9:20, that is such a stupid comment. Why don't you inform us of the facts, maybe a study, just how many hours a day do your turbine turn and create noise? I'd really like to know the facts about that, please let us know.
9:25 are we suppose to believe you that there are quite a few CDL drivers just waiting for work. Where is your proof of that. Last that I heard farmers are excluded from the CDL law. You are doing what you accuse SFS of doing, making a lot of statements without providing any proof.
9:25 again you make false statements. No one said anything about the county being saturated with jobs. I believe the statement was that the unemployed folks in Somerset are unemployable due to a lot of things and the wind mills would not help those folks at all.
If you like your plan you can keep it, if you like your doctor you can keep them, period.
Windmills are the savior of Somerset county, they will flood the county with money and no one will be unemployed and we can live in utopia forever, period.
Wind mill guy, how many folks in the Crisfield Housing project will you be employing?
Oh, I understand, you will only be hiring people that already own business like excavators, professional drivers, etc. Well thanks anyway, maybe someday we can get a job from someone else are the county can give us a raise with the extra tax money they get from you.
This is really sad! Almost a third of Somerset lives below the Poverty Line and yet the people of SFS continue to argue that we don't need investment or more tax revenue! People so consumed with jealousy they would rather see the whole county miss out on an opportunity that will provide almost 3 million in annual tax revenue plus over a million injected into the economy every year from lease payments, payroll and maintenance. Supporters have repeatedly challenged SFS to say what they would support and nothing has been offered. Just crazy denial that one of the poorest counties in the country with a declining economy needs a new industry. For SFS to argue that a 200 million investment would not have a positive impact on Somerset as a cited study shows is very telling on just how disconnected from reality SFS is.
Yes 9:56 You start off by claiming I am part of Pioneer which I am not. You implied that somehow the quarries in the area which are private businesses getting more business would be a bad thing. You indicated it would be negative as you would then have to look at the quarries and they would be further excavated and that the quarries getting business would make the price of sand and gravel go up. Yes demand and supply set the price. If the demand goes up it is possible that the price of sand and gravel would go up. Where is the problem? How much sand do you buy in a year that it would be better to deprive the quarries of business to sustain the current price for you? I would love for every local business to have increased demand. That's not ridiculous, that's just wanting to see local businesses do well, local businesses doing well is what makes the local economy do well. What happens when local businesses do well? They hire! They spend money on equipment! While in-state farming is exempt I believe from the needing a Class A, if you ask around many farmers do have their Class A's. In addition many people that work for them seasonally have their Class A's. Having a commercial license is not the rarity you think it is. In addition if someone needs work, if they dedicate themselves to it for a few months they can get their Class A's. I am trying to understand your 9:57 comment. You really want to imply that companies doing more business and having more customers is a bad thing? 10:00 Once again I am not Pioneer. Once again you gripe about being labeled SFS while labeling the proponents Pioneer. While the MET towers have proven there is adequate wind in Somerset for wind development (despite what the opposition has repeatedly said) Pioneer has not released data on how many hours per day the turbines would spin. I do not see how this data is pertinent. If the investors feel there is adequate wind that is their money at risk. I believe sound has been brought up. Since you don't seem to want to believe what has already been posted take a couple hours and drive to Lewes DE and see a turbine for yourself. I've been there and usually the sound of the refrigerators at the local dairy completely drowns out the sound of the turbine. GE states that turbines are about as loud as a refrigerator. Pioneer has said publicly they will engineer the project to meet the state 55dba restriction that applies to every residence and every business except agriculture. 10:04 I know many of my neighbors. I have lived here my entire life. I can vouch that their are quite a few people with Class A's that would welcome extra work. There is no study for this so you can believe there are no Class A driver available in Somerset if you wish as I cannot prove it to you. But then where would these drivers stay? Where would they get gas? Where would they get groceries? Where would they eat out? Even if we accept your statement that their are no commercial drivers available in Somerset which is completely off base there would still be a huge boon to the local economy. Of course then we run into companies having increased business and you've already implied you don't want that.
After reading the comments posted this morning all I can say is I hope the commissioners are following this thread and now know SFS believes Somerset does not need any economic growth. Unfortunately not everyone in Somerset has a rich Father they can mooch off of. Even if they did I would hope they would want Somerset to be something better than what it is.
10:15 SFS Guy, So it is your idea that Somerset sits back and waits for a perfect business to come along that hires all of the counties unemployed and generates more than 3 million per year in county revenues? That is a great way to make sure the county never improves economically. Who do you think works for all the businesses you list? PEOPLE! Are you people really going to make the case that any number of jobs is a bad thing? What about 3 million per year in county revenues is that a bad thing? What about hosting landowners turning a profit on their investments is that a bad thing? What about all the local businesses that would benefit from the project construction is that a bad thing? Once again it seems your greatest objection is that you are not drawing a paycheck from it.
Hey 10:15 What are you offering? What do you suggest for Somerset? Just keep doing the same thing that has made us the poorest county in the state? The fact that GB will be a great boost to the Somerset economy is proven by the study from the Jacob France Institute. So okay you don't like turbines, fine! But what are you suggesting? All you seem to be able to do is tell us what you are against. Tell us what you would support and maybe we can find some common ground. Just because you are financially secure does not give you license to ignore or even enjoy the poverty around you.
And you are going to hire how many unskilled, uneducated, unemployed people GB? Did I hear that correctly, NONE?
OH, but you keep reminding us how much money you will spend here, doesn't that embarrass you at all.
Will PG even spend any money at all or will they simply sell the entire project if they are lucky enough to ever get the permission they need?
I don't have to suggest anything 11:41 and I'm not asking the county to do anything for me either.
Somerset must not be all bad, people from the North East have been moving here for years, they seem to like it just fine the way it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, that is what I was always told.
PG guy I really think you need to get out of the office and talk to some of the real people on the streets of Princess Anne. Do you really think they would believe they would see any benefit from 50 wind mills in the county?
I hope the commissioners follow this site as well because if they do they will surly realize that GB is less than honest when they constantly say that everyone that is anti wind mill is a part of SFS. That is simply not true and people are capable of making their own decisions without belonging to any organization.
@12:20 Great argument!!! I hope to hear you make that argument to the commissioners! Ignore the 30% of Somerset living in poverty because we are attracting people from Jersey the way we are. We sure wouldn't want to upset that would we! Of course you aren't going to suggest anything to make the county better because you SFS elites enjoy seeing the poverty!
Again PG twists the truth. No one said that there are no CDL's in Somerset. What was said was anyone with CDL's has a job and is working. If they are not working all they need to do is look at the help wanted adds or just go up to Prudue and put in an application.
Anyone that can pass a drug test and has a high school education can get a job at the prison. If you can't qualify for that then nothing PG is going to do will help.
@12:24 Are you suggesting the REAL people on the streets of Princess Anne have a better understanding of the economic impact of the GB project than the Jacob France Institute. Again I really hope to hear you make that argument to the commissioners! The trust you put on someone's opinion seems to not come from their credentials but their agreement with what you want to believe.
10:44, OK I'll take you for your word, you are not PG. So you are either someone from the EDC, county, or someone that stands to benefit significantly from this project. No bystander has the information that you have so readily available at your finger tips.
Just a thought. Who should one trust? A company that stands to make millions of dollars and has nothing to lose and everything to gain or people that have nothing to gain at all and are just standing up for what they truly believe in? I would suggest the latter. It's rare in this day and time that people are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in. Congratulations SFS, you are to be admired.
I'm pretty confident that I was correct when predicting 1000 comments. PG will not let up as long as anyone else has anything at all to say.
12:42 Yes who should one trust? A opposition group that has already been caught in several lies (such as 690ft turbines), made several outrageous demands (such as 40dba restrictions in an Agricultural community), slanders numerous peoples names on news blogs, files bogus ethics complaints, cannot provide sources to back up their claims and whose principal information seems to come from youtube and wind watch or a company that comes in with a long list of sources to verify their claims that is predicated to bring 2.9 million to the county per year, and has operated in good faith in the community for 5 years. Despite how obvious it is that much of the opposition cannot be trusted I would still advise the commissioners to not believe either and to do their own research relying on credible information. If they do this the fighting can end as Pioneer will finally have its ordinance. You say a lot about your character 12:42 when you say you admire a group such as SFS after all the accomplishments previously noted, apparently throwing around unsubstantiated accusations of corruption and filing bogus ethics complaints while hypocritically leaving out the leader of the opposition who had identical conflicts of interest doesn't bother you.
12:43 While you say a lot you don't make any points. You say every proponent post is a lie but you offer nothing to substantiate your point. You say every study posted is somehow false but you offer nothing to contradict it. You say that you are concerned with ethics and corruption but then you throw around an endless list of accusations of corruption against any name you can think of that doesn't agree with you with no evidence of any wrongdoing. You whine endlessly about being labeled SFS because you are an opponent of the project but then you have no problem labeling every proponent as PG. You say that you are just "standing up for what you believe in." But what do you believe in? You believe "wind mills" are big, bad, evil, machines, but why? What convinced you of this? Where is your information? The opposition on here has made several claims, but they almost never are able to back it up with credible information. Someone did post a few studies from SFS. But the opposition has not even read them well enough to be able to debate their contents and realize exactly what information was in them. One of you posted a reference that was supposed to prove the proponents were lying and house values would tank. What was referenced was a single house whose owners I believe actually requested to have their appraisal lowered. This was somehow supposed to contradict 20+ studies that all showed no loss in property values? Furthermore I still cannot figure out what the opposition is concerned over. They make one outrageous claim, and as soon as a proponent gives a list of research that disproves the claim the opposition shifts to another claim and as soon as research is posted to refute that claim the opposition moves on to a new outrageous claim, etc, etc. The opposition has also claimed that the county does not need the 2.9 million in county tax revenues despite the county being one of the poorest on the east coast with a 30% poverty rate. 10:44 claims that I must be someone in the project or work for the county as "no bystander has the information" that I have but this point is also very untrue as everything I have posted I found and read, it is all available out there to anyone that wants to take the time to educate themselves. 12:42 You are right in your assessment that "It's rare in this day and time that people are willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in," but as you make plain and elections over the past years also indicate is that it is rarer for people to take the time to figure out what they are fighting for. I guess it is easier to pick a side and then try to find a few tidbits of information to justify it then to go out and get as informed as possible and then make an educated decision. I trust the commissioners to do their duty as elected officials and make an informed decision on this so that the county can have its ordinance and a company that has been here operating in good faith for five years can continue to plan its investment in Somerset.
12:20. 30% of the county lives in poverty. The education system desperately needs more money for staff and facilities. The county at the current rate will soon need to contemplate a tax increase as there isn't enough revenue. To add to that previous comment the county will soon need to pick up the tab on pensions, it has no budget for this. If you don't see things that need to be fixed then this conversation is pointless as you are in denial about the county's fiscal status.
And you my friend 6:20 have but one goal in mind and that is to build your wind mills in Somerset county and make your money and leave. It is so disingenuous of you to pretend that you care so much about this county. It really is pointless to continue the conversation because with your tunnel vision you seem to be able to only see dollar signs $$$$$$$.
Is there nothing more important than money to these snake oil salesmen? I've heard that money is the root of all evil!
3:46, no one knows what you are talking about because 12:43 said nothing that you accused them of. They only predicted 1000 comments.
If windmills are so great why is PG so insistent on building in Somerset? I'm sure other counties would be begging them to build them in there counties if they were at all desirable. We will not get a truthful answer from Pg but the fact is they thought Somerset was the only county dumb enough to allow them. How much are you going to spend again PG, I've only read it 100 times?
Seems that PG picks and chooses which questions to answer. Haven't seen an answer to how many folks from the 30% poverty level families they will be hiring. How about how many hours a day will the wind mills be turning on average. Will you actually build the wind mills or just sell the rights to another company as soon as you get permission and walk away with the loot? I'm not really expecting an answer but if the commissioners are reading this maybe they can ask these questions of PG.
The Jacob Franc Institute is a biased study based on data supplied by Pioneer Green (PG).
PG paid for the study, the software used is recognized in the science community to favor wind. Taking the time to read the study reveals many flaws one of which assumes the $200 million will be spent within Somerset. This is phony baloney. Turbines will be purchased from a foreign country, the construction crews will come from somewhere else and will spend approximately 3 month in a neighboring county during construction ( very few hotels in Somerset). The lower eastern shore is #3 in the United States for bald eagle population. This is a horrible plan that should never have gotten this far.
The reason Somerset has above average poverty is due to poor leadership. Somerset has tremendous natural resources that are among the best in the nation, yet those in charge promote Somerset as "poor" and "unskilled". These labels deter people from visiting Somerset or considering Somerset County as a place to live or invest.
Once again SFS questions a study based solely on the fact it disagrees with their assertions. It claims the study has many flaws but refuses to point them out. Then makes a few claims it can't back up such as turbines will be purchased from another country. This country makes the best turbines in the world and exports many. They cite none of their credentials nor do they cite a study that contradicts. In other words same old thing from SFS!
Apparently SFS has forgotten Eagles have been addressed about twenty times on this thread so once again I will point out both the Sierra Club and the Audubon Society have looked at this issue and not only support the GB project, they have fought hard for it. Also studies have been cited on this thread regarding this issue that show at worst a 1% loss in the Eagle population. This would certainly be sustainable.
I am sorry, but after reading the comments from the opposition posted on March 3, I have to wonder about you all. You have no concept of how supply and demand work, you don't want quarries (that are already here) and are having a fit that these quarries might be used in the project. You further wonder who will be hired from the projects and indicate that anyone with a CDL already has a job so won't get any business from this project.
People who have CDLs might just look for a "side job" to supplement their income. Someone else may decide to purchase a dump truck and hire someone (maybe help someone who is unemployed get their CDL) to drive the truck. Might even need two people to be able to run the truck more hours.
Since you are concerned about the price of dirt going up because of this project, perhaps you should just stockpile some in your yard since you must be purchasing quite a bit each year for this to have such an impact on your life.
Since you are also concerned that the turbines will be purchased from a foreign country, am I to assume that you don't personally purchase anything that was made in a foreign country. Check you clothing label, check your TV, check your phone - bet most of it was produced in a foreign country. Also, I would like to point out the US is a manufacturer of turbines and turbines are actually an export item.
And before you go on your general line - I am not a PG employee. I support the Keystone Pipeline. I want better for this county and better for our country.
@11:08 You cite poor leadership in this county as the cause of its economic troubles. For once I have to agree with SFS! We have a company wanting to invest 200 million dollars in this county and it has been waiting almost 4 years for a zoning ordinance. Any other company thinking about doing business in Somerset would definitely not look at that favorably. However SFS making the claim of poor leadership is very hypocritical since they have been challenged repeatedly to state what they would approve of but they flat out refuse. In fact reading through the comments posted yesterday I think it is clear the SFS poster enjoys the poverty in Somerset and does not want any economic development! If this is not true then state some viable ideas to better Somerset and maybe we can find common ground and improve the economic situation.
Hey PG guy let's see, you said SFS members are: desperate, liars, enjoy the poverty of our county, jealous, elitist, and off their meds. You complained that SFS makes accusations and hides behind anonymous. Isn't that exactly what your doing here?
The raptor population in Somerset will decline by 47% either by death or displacement because their habitat will be transformed into a killing zone. FOIA documents from FWS show a "NO BUILD" recommendation for this project. No project has been built in the midst of bald eagle habitat. This project is within 10 miles of 30 bald eagle nests. The Criterion Project in Garrett has no eagle nests within 10 miles and therefore has no eagle kills. Bald eagles choose this region because of its idyllic habitat created by the Pocomoke River and the tributaries of the Bay such as the Annemessex. Their days are spent foraging from one water source to the other. Placing wind turbines here guarantees decimation of the local eagle population. We also enjoy a robust bat population which cannot coexist with industrial wind. Please contract Sarah Nystrom @ FWS for more details of The Great Bay Wind project.
Still no answers to the questions from the commenter at 10:10.
Another question that probably will not get answered "did PG pay for the study from Jacob Franc Institute?
You are misleading the folks again 7:53, I really wish you would stop doing that. I personally would support 95% of the business that are still doing business in this country. I really can't list them all but most would be welcomed in Somerset. It's easier to list what we do not want and that is more prisons, more land fills, and wind mills. Please quit saying we do not want other businesses because again that is a flat out lie. Your comments are what could be detrimental to attracting other businesses to Somerset. Please quit doing damage to this county, we have to live here, you do not.
PG said that if the tax credit expired it would kill the project, PG said if they couldn't get the height they wanted it would kill the project. They got neither and guess what, they are still here and still trying to push forward. Sounds like a little misleading going on here again to me. And who do you trust for the truth? They never answer tough questions, only refer us to studies that still do not answer the questions.
I have to question why the Audubon society would support killing 1% of eagles a year. Anyone else killing even 1 eagle would go to jail yet because Obama issues permits for wind companies it makes it OK. That is just about as ridiculous as most of the other things Obama has done to this country.
Good information 8:26, I'm not familiar with FWS, could you please tell us what that is, I assume it is a government agency due to the FOIA request. I would like to contact them but would like to know who they are first. Do they have any enforcement authority?
10:52 Where in the study does it indicate that the entire purchase price will be spent in Somerset? The study indicates a economic boast of 1 million per year and 2.9 million in county tax revenues. Neither of those are contingent on the turbines being purchased by a non-existent turbine manufacturer in Somerset County. 10:01 There are several factors that have been openly revealed as to the reasoning behind Pioneer developing in Somerset. There are no protected species of bats, no golden eagles, electricity prices are high, Somerset is at the end of the electrical grid and there are tracks of land large enough to accommodate setbacks. 9:44 Another false accusation. I have always been thrilled when anyone in the county does well. This is no different. I have been here my entire life and have no intention of leaving. Yet another lie.
8:03 I have not slandered anyone's name. I have not made any accusations of corruption. If SFS wishes to make any accusations of corruption then it should be done publicly. If they wish to slander anyone's name then they should at least put their name to it.
For 300 years, the descendents of the same "plantation" people have run this county. When the Civil War interfered with their plans, they prevented busness that would raise wages, including Walmart, from coming to the county. This project will not raise wages, because it will employ only a couple of local people, and will reward friends and family with payments from taxpayers and power users.
Yes, there is a study that documents this.
8:26 Soooo glad you decided to bring up that misinformation. The 47% decline in raptors is from a publishing by Garvin et al from the Wis. Dept of Forest and Wildlife Ecology at the Univ. of Wisconsin. It focused on the Forward Wind Energy Center which is located next to a wildlife refuge (similar case to Somerset) and is a particularly large wind farm. Observation sites were set up on regular flight routes through the wind farm. Sightings at these observation stations did decrease by just under 50%. However during the time of the study (2005-2009) a total a five raptors were found deceased near turbines. Out of the 1480 raptors observed this would be a kill percentage of 1/3 of a percent. 63% did fly within 500m of the turbine. But no strikes were observed. This seems to correlate what Great Bay is saying about raptors, that they will see and avoid. It also correlates what other research has shown. That wind turbines are not a major killer of birds of prey. The study does show a change in behavior and a change in territory due to the wind turbines. Isn't that what we want? For the raptors to adapt and hunt away from wind turbines? With a Wildlife Refuge next door I think its clear where the 47% of raptors went (minus the 1/3 of a percent that died of course). We will not have a 47% mortality in raptors, they will simply find safe areas to hunt. If someone wants to argue that we shouldn't put anything out that will directly interfere with the flight path and hunting areas of birds of prey that is an argument. But then are we willing to close all airports, close all major roads through wooded areas and ban all machinery from going near wood lines were nests occur? The study clearly showed that 47% of raptors will move away from turbines to safer areas altogether (this area had a wildlife refuge nearby). The remaining 53% will remain closer than bird watchers may like but that only 1/3 of a percent will actually maneuver close enough to receive a strike from the turbine blade. The Journal of Raptor Research found that since 1997 85 bald and golden eagles have been found dead from being struck by wind turbines. In the Garvin article all of the fatalities they were recorded were Red Tailed Hawks whose behavior apparently makes them more susceptible to wind turbine strikes as referenced by Hoover and Morrison (2005). Fortunately Red tailed hawks carry a conservation status of "Least Concern" so their breeding population can accommodate a loss of a fraction of a percent. For the record Bald eagles also carry a conservation status now of "Least Concern" So no matter what angle you look at it no data is indicating raptor losses are worth scrapping a multi-million dollar business proposal.
8:45 There are actually quite a few things that kill an occasional eagle. Power lines, aircraft, rat poison is known to kill raptors, Native Americans are allowed to occasionally "take" an eagle for ceremony, buildings kill birds indiscriminately. Do you wish to see all these banned?
PG guy said SFS lied about the 690' turbines. The Navy report, showing that the turbine project represents a threat to national security, clearly said Pioneer Green requested the option to go to 700'. Pioneer Green said in a P&Z meeting that the tallest turbine made was 690'. That's where that information came from. So is the Navy lying?
8:40 SFS has made a huge fuss over the use of a tax credit by the wind industry, completely ignoring that every energy source gets tax credits. If the economics of wind now allow PG to build without a tax credit then if SFS had a legitimate gripe about the tax credit then they would drop it. What is your tough question? You asked how 1 million in economic business would help the county. This has been described several times. If you still don't get it go check out an economics book at the library. You asked how many hours per day the turbine would spin. There is no way of predicting this to an exact number. The answer that has been given and I will give it to you again is that the MET towers have recorded enough wind to make a company willing to invest millions to do business here.
8:36 So you are against wind turbines for no reason greater than you don't like them? You can name off a list of easily refutable reasons again for me to cite sources to prove inaccurate if you wish otherwise just leave it at you don't want the county to get 1 million in business revenue per year and 2.9 million in county tax because you don't like the source. You also wish the jail wasn't here so how many jobs is that gone if you had your way? You want the landfill gone? How many jobs is that? How much money in payroll to employees if you had your way would the county lose? How many millions? This mentality, the mentality that Somerset does not need jobs and revenue to climb out of poverty is one of the reasons the county is in poverty.
8:29 I believe it has been said on here that yes Pioneer commissioned the Jacobs France Institute to do an economic analysis for the project. The Jacobs France Institute is a very well respected institution when it comes to economic assessments. They would not risk their credibility for what Pioneer would pay. Furthermore the opposition keeps saying that somehow the Jacobs France Institute got it all wrong. This is almost funny. Somehow a group of people that cannot even comprehend how 1 million in business revenues would help the county are going to allege that they know better than the Jacobs France Institute?
11:08 To what resources do you refer? The Chesapeake Bay fisheries that Somerset has long depended on are falling apart. The agriculture that Somerset has long depended on is being regulated out of business by the State. You talk about people visiting Somerset. How much tourism revenue does Somerset get right now? If you wish to see tourism increase then the Great Bay project is a great place to start. Travel a little bit and you will realize that wind farms have often been promoted as tourist sites.
10:52 How was the Jacobs France Study biased? What data did Pioneer give them that caused bias? The only the Institute would have relied on from Pioneer would have been turbine data. It is true that the number of turbines has changed but the number of MW has not changed. As landowner payments and tax revenues are calculated based on these numbers they would not have changed.
9:15 If you actually READ the Navy report you will see that Pioneer confirmed 590 ft maximum but requested the ability to explore options up to 700ft. Pioneer did openly say that they briefly looked at taller turbines but discarded the idea as the economics didn't work for the terrain. Pioneer openly said in a meeting that while they had briefly looked at taller turbines anything above 590 was off the table. So no the Navy isn't lying....you are.
I did read the Navy report. I guess Pioneer Green didn't inform the Navy that taller turbines were off the table. That wasn't mentioned in the report. When asked by attorney Porter, PG said lower turbine heights would not be economically feasible for their project. Now PG has just put in an application for a lower height turbine...hmmm.
It is very obvious that employees from PG are providing all of the pro wind mill data and that is fine, they should, but I wish they were honest enough to admit it. All comments are very similar and written by on or two people. On the other hand it is easy to tell that there are many anti wind folks that are commenting due to the writing style, spelling, grammar, etc. Just an observation, no big deal.
Exactly 9:49, that was my observation as well. PG definitely said that if they couldn't get the tallest they would walk away, when they didn't get them they simply changed the height. That is not what reputable people do. They knew they could go with lower heights but were bluffing just to get what they wanted.
9:49 Did you not notice the "Confirmed 590ft ceilings" part? Seems like the Navy report reflects exactly what Pioneer said. Yes they changed one turbine height to a lower height. Crumbacker asked them about this and Paul Harris indicated the single turbine was separate from the Great Bay project. This was published in the County Times.
10:02 Wrong again. None of my information came from PG. All of it is available online to anyone willing to put forth the effort. In fact I read the Navy report on SFS.
10:06 Despite what you say they have not changed the height for the project. With the exception of one turbine all turbines remain at the 590ft ceiling. If the single turbine change interest you then contact PG and ask. If they were lying about the feasibility of lower heights then they would change all the heights and move forward. Instead they seem to be waiting for the DoD to lift its objection.
10:06 Actually from what I had heard they told planning and zoning that they needed roughly 575ft. SFS continually claimed Pioneer needed 690ft. This is probably why the P&Z made the county limit 575. If Pioneer had been lying then this was a zone out. If SFS was lying then Pioneer would get the minimum height they needed. Pioneer seems to be waiting for the FAA to issue permits so it seems pretty obvious who was lying.
Im glad someone mentioned the navy. At the P&Z meeting Glen Ains said that he was a veteran and would object to the project if the undersecretary of the navy said the project was a threat to national security. The Navy said is represents a real threat to Pax river and national security. Where is Glen Ains now?
10:33 The DoD said that they could not move the project forward until the MIT study is completed as until those results are available they do not feel they can mitigate the project. This study is referenced in the DoD report and is scheduled to be completed in December 2015.
10:33 This is completely off topic and to your credit I realize it was probably an honest mistake but people die defending this country. Show the service its appropriate respect with "Navy" rather than "navy." I will state it again to underscore I am not making any insinuation as to your argument, I am just asking that for the sake of any veteran that might read this that that tiny modicum of respect be observed.
10:43: more PG smoke. What does your point have to do with what i asked? Glen Ains said he would object to the project if the navy made a real objection. The navy did make that objection.
10:43 How is that more smoke. The DoD did voice an objection and say they couldn't make a ruling until a MIT-LL study was completed. Because the DoD cannot give approval on permits you think Glen Ains should permanently object to the project?
10:56 It should also be noted that upon notice of a permit request the DoD had 90 days to legally object to a project. When Mr. Ains made the comment you referenced two years had passed since the DoD had been notified of the permit request by Great Bay. Pioneer could probably force the FAA to issue the permits anyway as no legal objection was made in the legal time frame. But to Pioneer's credit have have not tried to force the issue out of respect for the DoD.
Sorry no disrespect to the military. The Navy did make a ruling. They said plainly the project is a threat to national security. Glen Ains said he would object to the project if the Navy declared it a threat. The Navy did. You can talk all you want about the future of the project and mitigation and MIT studies, but the Navy actually objected.
11:02 Read the report. "Absent effective mitigation, wind turbines constructed within the ADAMS LOS will
prevent DoD from performing the ADAMS RDT&E mission conducted at NAS Patuxent River.
As a result, DoD would be unable to characterize aircraft survivability, causing increased risk to
the Warfighter and constraining operational decision makers due to inadequate knowledge of
aircraft signatures. The formal request by the applicant to the FAA for a Determination of No
Hazard on August 26, 2014, without mitigating the unacceptable risk, has put the Department in
the position of having to formally object to the project. " On Technical mitigation "Technical solutions that are both feasible and affordable and can also be implemented
soon enough to meet the GBWEC project schedule while also allowing continuation of ADAMS
operation are not available at the current time. MIT-LL has evaluated numerous possible
technical solutions, all of which carry significant technical risk and cost. The most promising
technical solutions are currently being evaluated by MIT-LL in their Phase II study. The Phase
II study is planned to be completed by December 2015 and includes extensive hardware and
waveform prototyping and testing to validate system performance. " The DoD has stated in the report that once the MIT-LL study is complete they hope to be able to tune the turbines out and no hazard would exist.
Right, and the Navy report says very plainly that the mitigation strategies won't work. The final statement in the conclusion of the report is "Construction of this project in Somerset County, Maryland, would ultimately result in unacceptable risk to national security. So I'm just saying Glen Ains said he would object if the Navy said this. They did. Keep blowing smoke PG with your somerset county cronies.
By the way, that report alone cost the tax payers 17 thousand dollars. Thanks PG
Oh those SFS reading comprehension skills!!! I guess it needs to be pointed out to SFS AGAIN that the DOD wrote the mitigation agreement and PAX signed off on it. Rear Admiral Mark Darrah representing PAX signed off on it. Again the DOD wrote the mitigation agreement that PAX signed off on. The DOD then made an objection after political pressure was applied. Political pressure that is illegal under the Ike Skelton Act. Don't try and deny political pressure was applied as Hoyer has bragged about it. As far as what the report cost when the DOD claims our airspace they should have to prove it is necessary for National Defense. Who exactly is blowing smoke? At the time Ains said that there was no DOD objection. Since DOD offered a objection, even one outside the law, GB has not fought the objection. Seems to me GB has been very respectful to the DOD!
11:26 The DoD said that the mitigation strategies would not work until the MIT-LL study is completed. Are you saying the DoD has expressed a permanent objection? If you are not saying this then why would Glen Ains object to a project that will hopefully be cleared by the DoD in January 2016? Yes the DoD study cost 17 thousand. Pioneer paid the price for their permits. Don't you think the government should cover the tab for any risk analysis with a project? If the EPA objects to a business say a poultry house should the cost of proving the EPA's objection lie with the farmer or the EPA?
And the Navy said any mitigation forced on them by the project would cost millions in tax payer dollars. Thanks PG! Keep blowing smoke
This Great Bay Wind project has been riddled with red flags from the start. The Navy has spent more than $2 million dollars related to this project most of it with MIT. Somerset County P&Z has spent thousands of dollars all because Pioneer Green has chosen a poor site location for its wind project. Look at the wind maps, our wind resource is poor/marginal??????? Our tax dollars are being spent needlessly because of Pioneer Green.
FWS is Fish and Wildlife Service. They do not have veto authority but gauge the environmental impacts of the project. FWS based its Environmental Review on 5.0 MW turbines with hub heights of 459 feet. The blades on this size unit are over 200' making the overall height 670-690'. FWS said changing these height would be difficult because all of their analysis were based on this size unit. All the while, Paul Harris & Kevin Miller called those discussing these heights liars. Please call or email Sarah Nystrom @ FWS and ask her about Pioneer Green and The Great Bay Wind project. Be sure to inquire about the bald eagle take permits needed. By the way 20 takes X 30 years equates to 600 eagles for Phase 1 of this wind project.
Paul Harris of Pioneer Green answered when Dr. Fleury asked, "Paul, the papers show $44 million and $24 million which is it?" Paul answered, "One million or two million (per year) what's the difference."
So the PG guy admits that PG told Glenn Ains what height they needed. Glenn said he had no clue where the number came from. Prior to that motion, the board had implemented a 400' height limit because there was no proof turbines of greater heights were safe. At this meeting, Dr Fleury submitted the ruling by Brown County Citizens that the Shirley Wind project that consists of eight 492' wind turbines had been declared a human health hazard. Then Glenn motioned to increase the heights to 575'. Glenn Ains has some explaining to do. Why is he ignoring health and safety to please Pioneer Green???
1:04 As I am sure you know the USFWS is not the sanctioning authority for the height of a turbine. The FAA is. The FAA permits show and have shown 590ft ceilings. The DoD verifies that Pioneer confirmed 590ft ceilings. You claim the take permits would be maxed out. Where is your information?? Yes USFWS says permits will be required to compensate for the deaths of UP TO 20 eagles per year. These permits are required for any activity that might kill or injure eagles. The permits also must be for a greater amount than the eagles actually killed as per CFR 50 part 22. Can you provide any evidence that these permits will be used in entirety? The Center of Biological Diversity issued a report in 2007 (Eagle populations have increased even more since then) that stated that there were 363 and 560 PAIRS of eagles in Maryland and Virginia respectively. This is a total of 1846 eagles in Maryland and Virginia. I include those two states as wildlife do not recognize state lines and Somerset is located near the Virginia border. This means that even if the worst case scenario envisioned by the USFWS is realized, then 1.08% of eagles will be killed by the proposed project (going off the 2007 numbers which as I said are lower than the current population). You keep saying massive numbers of birds will be killed but you fail to provide any evidence of this. In fact the evidence you do provide states data directly to the contrary of what you claim. As per the research I have provided it suggests a fatality rate of less than 1%. There is additional research data to dispel the myth of mass raptor kills. Langston and Pullan (2003) indicated less than .01% of all bird kills can be attributed to wind turbines. Lucas et al (2005) failed to find any species of bird that would suffer a mortality rate of greater than 5%. Karlsson (1983), Byrne (1983) and Winkelman (1985) all recorded very low mortality rates at wind farms. Barrios and Rodriguez (2004) studied two wind farms in high traffic migratory areas over seas. One of the wind farms studied did have elevated mortality of two species of birds. However at the other farm studied mortality was almost 0%. It should be noted the two species of birds that were found to have elevated moralities at one wind farm are not native to the US (Griffon vulture and common kestrel). There simply is no data to substantiate the wild claim of mass raptor fatalities but there is plenty of data to debunk it. Can you provide any peer reviewed research indicating wind turbines will kill greater than 1% of the raptor population?
When are they coming to take Kevin to his padded cell?
1:11 Once again I am not Pioneer. You seem to have trouble understanding that point. I said that my understanding was Pioneer had told the P&Z what they needed. Once again you bring out health and safety. All evidence provided shows that these machines are safe. Where is the evidence to the contrary? 1:06 The Jacobs France Institute shows 2.9 million in county tax revenue with economic stimulus at 1 million per year. Where is your data to contradict this?
12:56 Yes The Navy has a duty to try to work with private business. Would you prefer the military not have this obligation? I have looked at the maps SFS claims show there is no effective wind. They are outdated and rely on technical specs and heights of old machines. Two MET towers have shown the investors are Pioneer that there is sufficient wind. You think outdated maps are more reliable than current MET towers? Say a lot about what you consider reliable information.
Correction, the ruling for Brown County was by the Brown Board of Health. Only eight turbines were erected in this community in 2009. Several people began to suffer a multitude of health problems because of their exposure to Low Frequency Noise. Some people abandon their homes because no one would purchase them. You can contact these people through Brown County Citizens for Responsible Siting. The Shirley Wind setbacks are greater than the ones proposed here.
12:52 Most of the cost you are referring to is in the MIT-LL study. Once that study is done PAX should be able to tune out the turbines and will not need any mitigation.
1:11 If SFS was telling the truth about the heights than 575 would have been a zone out and SFS would be calling him a hero. Are you admitting the entire 690ft talking point was a lie?
Hey SFS person. Are you going to deny that GB has stated since the beginning of 2014 that anything over the 599' FAA application was off the table? Are you going to deny that GB representative Paul Harris stated in at least three public meetings in 2014, with SFS members in attendance at every one that anything over 599' was off the table? That it would be almost impossible to go higher than 599'? Are you going to deny that the FAA application has never been higher than 599'? Now then are you going to deny that SFS still falsely claims turbines will be over that? That you have even uped the lie and made it 700' instead of 690'? After all GB has gone through with the DOD does any rational person think they are going to up the limit now? If they had the slightest intention of doing so don't you think they would object to the proposed ordinance's limit of 575'?
1:11, so I'm not the only one who noticed that PG just admit that Glen Ains gave them what they needed! And no, most of the taxpayer costs are not in the study. The Pax Naval commander said publicly that any mitigation such as alterations to the radar system would run into the millions. Thanks PG!
You keep mentioning a Kevin Miller but he is not listed as a property owner on the map SFS sent me. Is he a property owner with a lease or not?
@2:25 If I'm not mistaken the cost of millions was referring to what the cost would be to move the ADAMS radar. I really can't say what the software patch will cost the DOD. Keep in mind the DOD is known to spend tens of thousands for hammers. With the number of turbines in the world I'm really surprised the DOD has not bought software to squelch them out long ago. No one is suggesting the DOD move ADAMS. That was something Hoyer suggested as a scare tactic.
I have no idea what discussions Ains had or did not have with GB. However lets say for the sake of argument that GB told Ains it needed a 575' limit for the project. Since there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that a 575' limit causes a problem especially compared to a 400' limit, what's the problem? The zoning board is tasked with looking out for the counties interests and the safety of its residents while allowing as much freedom for industry as possible. Since the proposed setback increases with height by 2.5 times in all likelihood the 575' height turbine is actually safer than a 400' turbine. If such a conversation took place good for Ains, he reached a compromise that did not affect safety in a negative way but allowed an investor to do business in our county. The conversation that was inappropriate was Tammy Turbine telling the Delmarva Farmer she was confident GB would be zoned out. No county should have a zoning board member who feels its their job to keep an industry out. Their job is to protect the county. Rightfully so the commissioners got rid of her and hopefully the new member is looking out for the counties interests.
@1:21 As stated over and over again (and never refuted) Brown County Health Board did no scientific research. They have no controlling authority. Their statement carries no more weight than Fleury's. Big Deal! There is a scientific explanation for the problems in Brown County and it's much more likely to cause the listed symptoms than turbines would. That would be the Nocebo effect. Here is an excellent article about it. http://aweablog.org/blog/post/the-nocebo-effect-and-why-its-much-more-dangerous-than-wind-turbines
Good article for Tammy Turbine http://www.cnbc.com/id/102466651?__source=msn|money|headline|story|&par=msn
So 2:56 just admitted there are safety issues with turbines.
@9:04 - just to refresh your memory, the WalMart distribution center was killed in Annapolis by the State Legislators. The County had nothing to do with that. Don't you remember the WalMart bill?
But out of curiosity, would you have supported that or would the heavy truck traffic been too noisy, the construction of the center hurt the landscape or ruin the view, and would it have employed enough people to be meet with your approval?
I believe that Kevin Miller was hired by PG to be some kind of spokesman or PR person. Doesn't seem like he is doing a very good job of presenting their case.
I only attended one zoning meeting but the member that sat on the second from the left side of the table stated that he didn't want to set a height that would prevent the windmills from being built. That struck my as being a little biased. The committee was supposed to be doing what was best for the safety of the citizens of Somerset but they were more concerned about setting the height that would please PG. I believe that alone is why a lot of folks are very upset with this whole ordeal. It's obvious that PG had an understanding with the zoning board and commissioners before this project even got under way.
Would have loved to have seen Walmart in Westover 5:33. Why is it so hard for you to believe that we are pro business? Why is it so hard for you to believe that we just don't like jails, more landfills, and wind mills?
Walmart would have actually created real jobs. Not just 2 jobs picking up dead birds.
It should be time for the southern MD legislator to pass another bill killing this project. We have a governor now that would not veto it just to please Obama.
"There are actually quite a few things that kill an occasional eagle. Power lines, aircraft, rat poison is known to kill raptors, Native Americans are allowed to occasionally "take" an eagle for ceremony, buildings kill birds indiscriminately. Do you wish to see all these banned"?
No but add all these kills together and it would not even come close to the number the windmills will kill. Buy the way if the rat poison can be traced to an individual, they will certainly go to jail.
We have a problem with kills now it seems you are saying so your solution is to build something that will kill even more. What are you thinking?
The person that predicted 1000 comments sure knew what he was talking about.
PG is forcing us to use more energy by keeping our computers on all day and all night in order to dispel all the nonsense they bombard us with.
@6:07 If what you say is true, that it was all set up. Please tell me why the commissioners did not do, as they should have done and just passed the first proposed ordinance? You are correct in that the zoning board's job is to look out for the safety of the residents. However their job is to use science not emotion in determining setbacks. Their is absolutely no science that backs SFS's notion that a 575' turbine poses more of a risk than a 400' turbine. Considering the proposed ordinance has setbacks that are approximately double industry standards it's hard to accept your argument that the zoning board did not take the safety of Somerset County residents seriously!
@6:12 Your post is one of the dumbest even for SFS. You may not realize this but part of Obama's job is Commander and Chief. That means if he wanted the DOD to accept the GB project all he had to do was tell them to accept it.
why do the lease and easement agreements land owners signed w/pioneer green have a non-exclusive easement for electromagnetic, audio, flicker, visual, electrical, or radio interference attributable to wind turbines ?? If they have any of those problems they already gave up their rights . Right ??
the lease agreement #6. Owner has agreed not to engage in any activity that might interfere w/ tenants efforts to develop, construct, or operate the wind project without the prior written consent of tenant. Talk about signing your rights away !
6:19 A considerable amount of research has been posted to dispel the myth of mass bird kills. You continue to state that the turbines would harm our native species. As you continue to contradict all th research that has been cited could you please cite your sources? I am more inclined to believe a wide body of research by numerous respected scientists from several prestigious institutions published in several well respected journals than an anonymous post.
@6:19 What are you suggesting? The alternative is continued reliance for our electricity from a coal powered electric plant in Delaware. Producing electricity from coal kills far more birds than producing it from wind. Do you want to live without electricity? That is why both the Sierra Club and the Audubon Society have endorsed the GB project.
@7:31 That's to protect the company from frivolous lawsuits. Standard stuff that's in lease agreements. Don't believe me ask a lawyer.
Glen Ains is on the P&Z board in Somerset county? He's been involved in a number of lawsuits over misrepresentation of properties. No wonder Somerset County is in such a mess.
Do you mean King Obama 6:44. All these years I thought we lived in a republic. Now I find out we have a dictator (Obama).
7:43 it's the words that you use that really turns people off and makes you look foolish. The key word in your comment is MASS. Because we will not get MASS bird kills doesn't make it a good thing. The 1% is much to high and could be literally 100's of different species. I wish you would just be 100% upfront and honest.
7:50 I want to read the endorsement from the auduban society and the Sierra Club, where can I find it please?
Let me ask you a question 7:50, does anyone in America live without electricity? Are you suggesting that because we don't want wind mills that we may be without electricity in the near future. I hope you answer in the affirmative because that will proof you have gone completely insane.
6:40 the answer to your question as to why the commissioners didn't pass the first proposed ordinance is most likely to be that they were educated as to the many problems that the wind mills would present. It was a very wise move on their part. You probably thought you would get in under the radar but that just didn't happen did it?
The commander in chiefs job is suppose to be defend and protect the country, not order DOD to do harm to America.
So PG now thinks it's OK if Obama orders gov agencies to do what ever he wants them to do? Do they really think that that would be constitutional? I thought PG had a bunch of lawyers on the payroll.
Wind mills would not even be in existence in this country except for the fact that Al Gore and the other liberals dreamed up this global warming hoax. Al Gore is now a billionaire and the country is in a cooling cycle. How gullible some people are!
8:20 So are you suggesting that a 1% loss of species classified as "least concern" is not sustainable? If it is sustainable then the project is not hurting the population. If you are arguing that it is not sustainable the. I want to hear how you reached that conclusion. Furthermore if you want to have an ecological footprint that curbs less than 1% of local species than humans are going to need to let go of a few things, such as cars, planes, pest control, power lines, etc.
8:27 While that wasn't my post I believe the point that was made is that every form of energy has an ecological setback. There is already a strain on the electrical grid, more power must be produced. Despite the fact that the current administration would never allow another coal plant to go online, coal kills far more birds than wind.
@8:23 Your joking right? Both groups fought hard and loudly to get O'Malley's Veto. Your not going to believe me so goggle it yourself. Also both groups were present at the Annapolis hearings in support of GB.
6:10 Why would anyone think you are not pro business? Let me see, a business first must not accept any tax credits to suit you, but then apparently according to one post tax credits must be offered to prove the business is valid but I suppose the business should turn them down. Then a business cannot make more than 40dba. If those first two criteria are met then the business cannot kill any birds. A single loss is far too much. Next the business must produce more than 2.9 million per year in county revenues. Not that the county needs it according to the opposition but anything less makes it not worth while. The business apparently must employ close to the 30% of the impoverished in the county. After all those criteria are met the business must pay for all of its permits.... and pay extra to cover the cost of any assessments that need to be done by any agencies. Then finally once all those boxes are checked off the business needs to be put to a referendum. No, I have no idea why anyone would think you people are anti-business.
8:20 I take it your against recreational hunting? Many of the local non-raptor bird species are legal for hunting and the management rates are usually much higher than 1%. Are you saying you are against anything that takes 1% or more of any bird population?
@8:27 There's that reading comprehension problem again! Our electricity comes from the power plant at Indian River in Delaware. It's coal fired. If we don't build turbines we will still have electricity at least for awhile. However using coal for electricity kills more birds than getting it from wind. Also the line from Delaware is overloaded which makes our electricity expensive and at risk of brownouts or worse blackouts. It would be a very good bet their will be some form of electrical generation in Somerset in the next few years. I suggest SFS be careful for what it hopes for. Also it should be noted that many coal fired power plants across the country are being shut down because of environmental regulations. This is causing a nation wide shortage of electricity. Politically nuclear is out because of Japan so what do you suggest? Natural Gas is cheap right now because of fracking, it is also much cleaner than coal. However there is a lot of concern with fracking and potential problems so I wouldn't count on that yet. Also for a big expansion of power from natural gas requires pipelines which take decades to get approved and built.
6:02 If they did then good for them. Apparently someone on here is well read. By my count the proponents have cited over 40 studies disproving pretty much everything the opposition says. One person from the opposition cited 31 studies that apparently most of the opposition hadn't even read as they contradict much of what the opposition claims. You say the proponents haven't done a good job presenting their case but the opposition hasn't made a case yet. They have thrown a bunch of easily refutable opinions out but for the most part cannot name a single credible source. You guys do read don't you? Or do you just let SFS tell you what to think? I went through the SFS website to try to just understand where you were coming from. I found an outdated wind resource map (that apparently SFS feels is more reliable than two current MET towers), a few opinion statements on real estate, the sources someone already posted on here (which were the only peer reviewed studies I could find on the entire website) and a lot of youtube videos. If you guys are just relying on youtube videos for information then I hope no one ever shows you the one of aliens landing in Baltimore, you poor people will be rushing to board up your windows before they can make it across the Bay Bridge.
I like how PG continues to throw around that 2.9 million per year number. The 2.9 million estimate is actually only for year one and it declines every year after that. More importantly though, the latest estimate is about half that. At the P&Z meeting, it was pointed out that no one really knows how the tax revenue is calculated. Further, in Garrett county, there state funding was cut in the amount that they received from the wind turbines, so there was no net gain. Finally, Id like to ask if this is so great, why did Worcester and Dorchester zone out industrial turbines? Sure, those counties are not as poor as Somerset, but if it is such a win win, why would those counties turn down revenue?
@8:20 I think it is interesting that a group led by a person who raises birds for human consumption would have us believe they view the life of birds as sacred.
8:34 and 8:39 What are you talking about? No one said they thought the president should order the DoD to stand down. They did say the president could. You don't think the president has a constitution authority over the military? There is no doubt the President could order the DoD to drop their objection. Of course he would then be taking a strong stance against Mikulski.
8:32 You guys have continuously claimed the commissioners are corrupt and have been influenced by conflicts of interest and are bending over backwards to suit PG. Now you claim the commissioners sided with SFS and possibly believed the empty rhetoric SFS has been spreading around. Which is it?
@8:44 Wind energy has been used in this country since long before Al Gore was born. Go back through this thread and I think you will agree that supporters have given a vigorous defense of the GB project now count how many times they referenced Global Warming. I don't recall any of them using it ever. There are many reasons to cut our dependence on fossil fuels. The carcinogens concern me far more than the carbon.
8:44 Congress passed the Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act of 1978 long before any one bought into the global warming myth. If I remember right in the 70's everyone thought the world was heading for an ice age.
@8:32 I'm not following your logic! You claim the fix was in and the commissioners had a agreement with GB to give them whatever they needed for the second ordinance but they didn't sign the first ordinance because they believed wind energy would ruin the county. Do you read the stuff you post?@ 8:34 and 8:39 Read the Constitution! Obama would be well be within his Constitutional Authority to order the DOD to sign off on the GB project. I'm amazed that even SFS would question this. You people really need to research a little before you post!
Mr. Daniels let me quote the study for you "In the operation and maintenance stage, expenditures made by the Great Bay Wind
Project will ultimately generate $3.4 million in additional taxes per year at the State and
local government level and $2.9 million within Somerset County. Due to limitations of 3
the model, the complete economic impact and tax effects are likely to be understated
since the multiplier effects of the taxes are not adequately captured. " I am quite sure before the Jacobs France Institute issued results they read how tax revenue is calculated. It should also be pointed out that "The ongoing operation and maintenance phase of the project will create 14.6 long term
jobs in Somerset County and add $405,572 to labor income and increase economic
activity by $1.8 million in the initial year of operations. Maintenance requirements will
increase as the equipment ages, so these numbers are likely to increase as well. "
@ Billy Daniels Do I understand you correctly that after Garrett got revenue from turbines the state cut their assistance so Somerset should not do anything to bring in more revenue because the state might cut our assistance? Is that really the argument you want to make. As usual the anti wind people like to trow around the relatively few places that zone out wind. Well how about all the places like Texas where wind energy is thriving with high approval ratings!
@8:44 one other point about wind energy and Al Gore the PTC or tax credit for wind energy was signed into law by the first George Bush and renewed by every President since. Al Gore was still a dopey Senator at the time.
David Yarnold of the Audubon Society recently wrote on The Huffington Post and elsewhere about wind power and bald eagles. Only a handful of bald eagles have collided with commercial wind turbines in the history of the industry. Moreover, the Fish and Wildlife Service rule he opposes applies to many other industries and activities beyond wind.
“Wind Siting Advisory,” Sierra Club Conservation Policies "Sierra Club outlines their policy strongly supporting development of wind energy generation and presents their perspective on development and sighting. Siting topics discussed include: land use, avian and wildlife impacts, visual/scenic and sound impacts, and safety."
Wind energy is not green because it requires 100% backup. So even when wind is producing, we are paying for two sources of energy. Ratepayers are charged double because they are charged for both sources. Many times the wind blows and produces energy that the grid cannot accept because it was not predicted and the grid has to know in advance where its power source is coming from. This unexpected power is dumped but ratepayers still pay because the wind facility is compensated according to production.
@11:45 This has some truth but is deceiving. Every form of electrical generation requires backup. Every power plant even nuclear is backed up at all times. This is because every form of electrical generation has gone offline unexpectedly at one time or another. Wind actually has an advantage because a 3MW turbine suddenly going offline is much easier for a grid to cover than a 500MW power plant. Power companies look at the variability of a wind farm and bid on the electric it provides accordingly. Power companies are not going to make deals that hurt their customers. Remember no power company is forced to buy electricity from any specific provider.
@10:08 Sad thing is Tammy made the same argument on the zoning board in public. A member of the Republican Central Committee arguing in public that there is no value in Somerset having economic growth because the State will then cut the handouts! SMH!
Wind & Solar Substantially Cheaper Than Nuclear In UK March 4th, 2015 by Giles Parkinson The first renewable energy auction held in the UK under its new “contract for difference” pricing mechanism has pulled the rug from underneath the nuclear advocate argument that it is the cheapest form of clean energy. It has also surprised the UK government, and some of the renewable developers themselves.
We publish a more in-depth look from Simon Evans at Carbon Brief here, but the striking result of the renewable energy auction was how both wind and solar came substantially below the price budgeted by the government.
Ignoring a couple of outlying bids, both wind energy and solar came in at around £80/MWh, which is well below the £120/MWh budget for solar, and the £95/MWh by the UK government, and the £92.50/MWh negotiated for the proposed £42 billion Hinkley C nuclear reactor
More PG spin! At a planning and zoning meeting, attorney Porter actually raised his voice with the PG guy and asked for a straight answer because he just kept getting long-winded rhetoric in response to his questions. And of course my question about Dorchester and Worcester counties wasn't answered.
Spin, spin, spin, no wonder PG likes windmills!
It is true Somerset's State funding will be cut due to the taxes that will be collected from the wind facility. This means the extra $$$s our commissioners are banking on are less then stated. Pioneer Green has lied so many times, who knows what our county will collect from the value of the windmills especially since the wind industry reduced the life of a turbine down to 10-15 years.
Mr. Daniels I thought the SFS mantra was the zoning board and commissioners had sold out to GB. Now you say the zoning board attorney who is hired to advise the zoning board on legal issues and has no business addressing anyone giving testimony to the board was shouting at someone wanting to invest in Somerset County. How is this consistent? The commissioners should have replaced the Chairman for allowing it! If you want me to comment on ordinance in other counties supply the ordinance. Here are a couple of ordinance in areas with turbines. I'll be glad to supply more. Conewago Township,PA. 1.1 times the height of system height, Boone County,Ill.1.1 times tower height, Akron, MI. System height plus 20'. Proposed Somerset ordinance 2.5 times system height. Seems to me supporters have answered all comments usually citing sources what exactly is your definition of spin?
8:15 Your absolutely right. Why should Somerset try to take care of itself. Let's just sit in poverty and keep relying on the state. You people while about tax credits but have no problem with 30% poverty and the county relying on the state.
@8:15 You make the accusation PG has lied many times. This accusation has been made many times on this thread and challenged with no example of dishonesty standing up to scrutiny.On the other hand many examples of SFS dishonesty have been given and supported often right off the SFS facebook page. Would you like to try and make something more than unsubstantiated accusations?
Do nothing to attract new industry and rely on Government handouts. Isn't that the business model Detroit followed?
@8:15 Could you cite a source that the life of turbines are only 10 to 15 years. Let me guess wind watch!
Mr. Daniels What is your definition of spin? Your question was answered with direct quotes from the Economic Impact Study. Do you consider publications from the Jacobs France Institute to be spin?
Study on the life expectancy of turbines http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/02/25/3325551/wind-turbines-durable/ Here is one quote "Beyond their topline numbers, the researchers also found evidence that the latest turbines are performing even better than their earliest models, suggesting they could outlast the 25-year threshold."
So I am curious, what does SFS have to say about this? http://www.bayjournal.com/article/md_manure_to_energy_plant_appears_to_be_going_nowhere
You are correct Mr. Daniels in that PG will never give a straight answer to any question that is anti-wind. They are very very good at spin. I believe they could get a job with the Obama Administration if the windmill deal falls through. It is just so obvious that most counties do not want windmills yet PG constantly tries to convince us how great they are. I'm with you, keep up the good work.
Just keep telling us how poor we are PG, that really helps your case. You are only concerned about lining your own pockets so it is very disingenuous of you to act so concerned about Somerset county. If you were not involved in this project you would not have the least bit of interest in this county.
12:03 Could you point out the question that was not answered and point out where the spin is?
12:08 As I have lived here my entire life I have always been concerned with this county. I have always been thrilled to see local businesses do well. Once again you are totally off base. Once again you make a nonsense accusation. Once again you offer no information that has anything to do with turbines. Getting into an argument about who cares the most about the county is a bit silly so let me just say this. This county is in serious fiscal trouble now, once they are forced to absorb pensions the budget will be much worse. There is a company here that is projected to put out 2.9 million in County taxes and you want to shut that down based on easily refuted rhetoric that you cannot defend with any credible fact. I supported this project long before I ever stood to make a dime off of it. I have listed my reasons for supporting this project and you cannot refute either of them or offer any alternative point of view. I have repeatedly asked you to offer a source to back up your many off the wall claims and you cannot, which to me says you either can't because you haven't really researched the topic for yourself or you won't because you know your claims are ridiculous and false. I am not sure which is worse, to be one of the "sheeple" blindly following SFS around taking their word for everything and never desiring to go out and get the facts for yourself, or to be one of the ones that knows the arguments made by SFS are false and repeat them anyway because you simply don't want to look at a turbine on your neighbors property and if you have to tell a lie here and there to prevent it so be it. Either way if I had my arguments ripped apart as many time as you guys have by numerous respected sources I would be embarrassed to keep coming back with the same easily dismissed rhetoric.
BE sure to pick up a County Times this week because it includes a map of the Great Bay Wind wind leses. At least four people and tracts are not included so take note. Cora Widdowson on Stewart Neck, Mark & Danielle Bozman, Stewart Neck, Kevin & Vick Miller, Westover, and Mike & Ginger Dryden on Elmo Dryden Rd. Thanks SFS, if it was not for your efforts we would still be in the dark. Doug Reynolds lease plot is included but his name is not. His plot is owned with Scott Tawes & Jimmy Nelson.
12:08 Are you trying to imply that the county is not poor? 30% poverty rate. 10th largest employer is McDonalds. The county budget is running out of money now and soon must take over new expenses from the state. The state decided it wasn't even worth the trouble to selectively provide free meals at school because such a high percentage of students were low income. Do you really want to try to argue that the county is in great fiscal shape?
12:03 There are currently according to Open Energy Information 1,175 wind farms currently in service with another 13 currently under active construction. In 1997 there was 1,673MW produced by wind, in 2013 there was 61,108MW produced by wind. By my math that is a 3652% increase in wind power. Wind power has been developed in every state. You do not get those types of increases on something the majority of people do not want. Navigant Research did a poll that found wind was viewed favorably by 72% of people. USA Today found 73% of people supported continuing the PTC. A University of Texas poll found that 89% of Americans wanted the federal government to focus on further developing renewable energy. Kansas is a huge state for wind energy and a poll there found 91% of Kansas voters support wind power. A March 2013 Gallup poll found that 71% of Americans supported wind energy production, 76% of Americans supported solar, 37% supported nuclear and 46% supported fossil fuels. A poll in Minnesota showed 84% supported increasing wind development. An Ohio statewide survey gave participants the choice of choosing a primary and secondary pick of preferred energy 25% chose wind as the first pick and 47% as the second, 31% chose solar as their first pick and 54% as the second, 16% chose coal as their first pick and 25% as the second, 10% chose nuclear as their first pick and 19% as the second. These polls and surveys do not back your claims that most counties do not want wind. In fact wind polls with very positive results. Furthermore let us set all that aside and say that wind was regarded unfavorably, that is the exact opposite of what that data says but just for arguments sake, most communities would not want poultry farms or for that matter any industrial agriculture so should we get rid of ag?
@12:47 - you mean to say that SFS has spent who knows how much money preparing and printing a map (to intimidate land owners), mailing it to residents and it isn't accurate????? Who would have ever thought that they could be inaccurate! And you are thanking them for their efforts because without them, "we would still be in the dark"?? If they had made this kind of error on your tax return, would you go back to them???? SMH.
http://whotv.com/2015/03/03/wind-turbines-have-positive-effect-on-crops/
If you don't get a bad thing in the first place 5:04 you don't have to worry about getting rid of it when you wake up and realize how bad it really is.
So 5:53 the community is supposed to ignore science and take your word that wind turbines would be a bad thing? The bad thing would be the counties economic climate getting worse and that is exactly the road SFS will take us down.
Hey PG guy, didn't you recently dismiss some of the scientific studies provided here because they were just surveys? Now you provide surveys to demonstrate how wind power is viewed favorably? What a hypocrite you are.
7:16 I dismissed written and oral surveys as a indicator of health if you bothered to read the post. I will agree with you that the people that complained of annoyance in those surveys are probably in the minority listed that do not favor wind power. No hypocrisy, just you being unable to read the post.
Excuse me, the map is accurate but not complete. It is important to note that even more people will be affected by the Great Bay Wind project. Kevin Miller's lease was not properly recorded in court records and was omitted due to it. I wonder if this is because his wife is a county employee and her participation was supposed to be a secret???
No, you said surveys were not reliable. So you like them when they favor your view.
Please understand the comments being posted in support of the Great Bay Wind project are coming from Kevin Miller who is being paid by Pioneer Green. Taking time to read the posts, exposes his lies and desperate attempts to paint this project as an economic boon for Somerset when in reality it is the opposite. Property values decrease while electricity rates increase. The information is available at multiple sources. The states with the highest percentage of wind production have increase their electricity costs at a greater rate then states without wind.
7:23 You said Kevin Miller had a lease. Now you say it was omitted because it wasn't recorded correctly. For it to be a legal lease it would need to be recorded correctly in the Court Records. Does he have a lease or not? You certainly have trouble getting things straight.
Many Germans have been thrust into poverty because of the higher electricity rates due to the increase in wind facilities. Germany now has to import much of its energy from France at very high rates because the turbines only produce 15% of the time.
7:27 Twenty plus studies have been cited that show no loss in property values. Additional sources have been cited that show no increase in power prices. If you want to dispute this then list the "multiple sources" you reference. Are your sources "Top Secret" or are you just afraid to admit you don't have any?
7:27 Questionnaire surveys are not a good indicator of health. Common sense. When you go to your doctor he will get you to fill out a questionnaire, from that does he schedule open heart surgery or does he want to actually look a physical factors first?
7:34 This has been addressed before. Germany saw their prices go up because they shut down their other forms of energy. Not this case here.
800 comments!
7:31 If Pioneer hired a local then good for them. Putting that aside if you have seen a lie could you name it? You say property values decrease and electricity prices increase, all the studies shown on here say the opposite. You say you have multiple sources, would you mind sharing them or are we supposed to just take you at your word?
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