The Treaty of Tripoli (1797), signed by President John Adams, and passed unanimously in the Senate explicitly states in Article 11:
"The United States is in not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".
Verify it here or here.
So, by virtue of our founding fathers, a valid United States treaty, and history itself, Obama is correct. We are a secular nation, with a secular government, and freedom for all to worship however they please.
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22 comments:
Well, specifically it is not a Christian nation.
That does not mean it is not influenced by other religions.
Our Nation has a calling recognized by most Americans to be "a city of light on the hill". We are destined to govern over all the peoples of the earth. Our government's foreign policy has reflected this belief for a very long time. It is clearly a messianic destiny.
Tell it to the Templars.
TS,
Don't try to confuse people with facts, they just get in the way! You are stirring up trouble today, my friend!
I do not know how this could be new information for anyone.
The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.
It's all good. We'll be an Islamic Theocracy within 50 years.
Then all you secularists will be stoned.
Praise Allah!
We need to go back to this way of thinking about religion and government. No religion in government.
3:02, classic loser.
Here here!
2:52 I think you are quite wrong when you say the framers of the constitution were deists. Quite the opposite- 39 out of 55 (70%) held strong religious reviews-namely Christianity. Their intent was,yes, not to make America a Theocracy, however, their beliefs led to many of our cherished freedoms-mainly to worship freely and without reservation. But to say they were Anti Religious or anti Christian is just wrong.
"Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of the United States.
Article 11Article 11 reads:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Advocates of the separation of church and state claim that this text constitutes evidence that the United States Government was not founded on the Christian religion. The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent.
Translation
Miller's Investigation and NotesThe translation of the Treaty of Tripoli by Barlow has been found faulty, and there is doubt whether Article 11 in the version of the treaty ratified by Congress corresponds to anything of the same purport in the Arabic version.
In 1931 Hunter Miller completed a commission by the United States government to analyze United States's treaties and to explain how they function and what they mean in terms of the United States's legal position in relationship with the rest of the world. According to Hunter Miller's notes, "the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic" and "Article 11... does not exist at all."
After comparing the United States's version by Barlow with the Arabic and the Italian version, Miller continues by claiming that:
The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point.[15]
From this, Miller concludes: "A further and perhaps equal mystery is the fact that since 1797 the Barlow translation has been trustfully and universally accepted as the just equivalent of the Arabic... yet evidence of the erroneous character of the Barlow translation has been in the archives of the Department of State since perhaps 1800 or thereabouts..."[15] It is important to note, though, that as Miller said:
It is to be remembered that the Barlow translation is that which was submitted to the Senate (American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II, 18-19) and which is printed in the Statutes at Large and in treaty collections generally; it is that English text which in the United States has always been deemed the text of the treaty.[15]
However the Arabic and English texts differ, the Barlow translation (Article 11 included) was the text presented to, read aloud in, and ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate.
Look at your Dollar Bills. Read them. Understand the words.
3:55,
Precisely. So, the US Senate heard article 11, voted on it, and President John Adams signed it, with full knowledge of Article 11.
The point: The United States is NOT, in any way, founded upon the Christian religion.
Orsonwells,
Maybe you take your religious cues from money, but the rest of us don't.
We are a Christian nation, 80% of the population claims they believe in Christianity. Do we have a national religion, NO! Do we keep other religions out, NO! Do we stop other religions from worshipping, NO! Do non believers have to believe, NO! The words "Separation of church and state" is also not in the Constitution-so the argument that God or Christianity or Jesus is not in the Constitution does hold water either. The idea of separate church and state is so that no national religion is ever declared, not so that we have to keep religion or references to relition from being practiced whether they are in public or private. Here is where what is not mentioned in the Constitution is left to the states to decide comes in. If you can't figure this stuff out, you need to start over.
4:12 You don't think 39 out of 55 signers who held some sort of religious belief , didn't allow it to shape their minds/opinions etc in framing the constitution? That being said, how can you unequivocally state that the US was not founded on Christian/religious principles?
to 4:28 Right on Brother!!! very well said- Amen- and thanks for the great post!
Some people have confused Judaism with Christianity.
Christians believe government is doomed to fail.
Jews believe the government is the vehicle for YHWH's work to be done. We await our Messianic Leader, who will be a political leader.
Christians believe violence and killing are always wrong.
Jews believe YHWH allows us to kill when necessary to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
Christians believe worldly possessions (manna) is evil and a temptation from Satan.
Jews believe money is the gift of YHWH and we will be blessed with many riches if we live our lives righteously.
Jewish Leaders are great political leaders. Christians don't even believe in government much less participation.
4:28
Actually, the poll you are citing found that 80% of the US population said that they believe in a god, not necessarily your god, or God as you see god.
And if this nation did have a state religion, it would be the Episcopal Church, which I feel certain would upset you no end.
Moreover, if this country had been founded on Christianity or the Bible as Pat Robertson likes to claim (that's where you got it whether you know it or not) , then surely the Ten Commandments would be expressed in the US Constitution, right? How many of the Ten Commandments are expressed in the US Constitution?
I am the Lord your God NOPE
You shall have no other gods before me NOPE
You shall not make for yourself an idol NOPE
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God NOPE
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy NOPE
Honor your father and mother NOPE
You shall not murder NOPE
You shall not commit adultery NOPE
You shall not steal Arguably in the BOR
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor Arguably in the BOR
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife NOPE
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor NOPE
4:12 Did you not comprehend what you read? The conclusion is that the translation of the Treaty from Arabic to English was flawed.
"...that the Barlow translation is that which was submitted to the Senate (American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II, 18-19) and which is printed in the Statutes at Large and in treaty collections generally; it is that English text which in the United States has always been deemed the text of the treaty.
So akin to today's Stimulus Bill, where Congress voted on a bill they didn't even read or understand, the Congress of then voted on a Treaty that was mistranslated, and this flawed document has always been deemed the text of the Treaty.
4:30,
If you had read the post, you would have seen that the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by our 2nd President (and signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution), explicitly states that we were not founded on Christianity. That's how he can say it unequivocally.
7:55,
No. It's not like that at all. The Treaty of Tripoli is one page long. The Stimulus bill was THOUSANDS of pages long.
The United States Senate voted on the version with article 11 within it. The Senators KNEW what it said and voted for it. President Adams KNEW what it said and signed it.
You're trying to find ways to argue around this with varying "versions"... but the fact is that the one that I posted is the EXACT SAME ONE that the Senate voted on.
"The United States is, in no way, founded on the Christian religion"
Sorry, but those are the facts, my friend.
This turned out to be a great discussion. Thanks everyone.
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